How to recognize three-betting w/o reads?

So I was in a recent tournament where I made a standard button raise w/ KJos as the big stack (60ish BBs) , and the big blind - whom I didn't really have a read on - three-bet me to about 8x BBs. I tanked for a bit, and because he had a big stack also (about 15 BB less than me), I decided to flat call. Flop came 310J, he bet pot, I pushed all in, and he had Aces.

Now you may want to debate my play, I don't think it's that bad. My question is how to avoid a spot like that. What types of hands should I just be folding to someone without a read and what types of hands should I be calling, or should I never be folding, or should I always be folding? Does the stakes of the game matter? High stakes they would probably be more likely to three-bet, right? What about the style - cash game vs sit n go vs tournament? Thanks

Moved to Tournament forum where it'll likely get more/better responses.

With no reads, it's never wrong to fold KJ to a three bet.

Henreiman said:

So I was in a recent tournament where I made a standard button raise w/ KJos as the big stack (60ish BBs) , and the big blind - whom I didn't really have a read on - three-bet me to about 8x BBs. I tanked for a bit, and because he had a big stack also (about 15 BB less than me), I decided to flat call. Flop came 310J, he bet pot, I pushed all in, and he had Aces.

Now you may want to debate my playNot really., I don't think it's that bad. its not good though, either, is it?My question is how to avoid a spot like that.Fold marginal hands, or hands that are easily dominated from players in low stakes(correct me if im wrong) where random players 3betting range is probably tighter, It's better to call 3bets from players you have reads on, and if your a lot deeper, most of the time though, we just have to give them credit, KJ doesnt play well in a 3bet pot, even if your in postion. What types of hands should I just be folding to someone without a read and what types of hands should I be calling or should I never be folding, or should I always be folding?it depends, relies on many factors Does the stakes of the game matter? YesHigh stakes they would probably be more likely to three-bet, right? Probably, yes.What about the style - cash gameCan call more 3bets in position vs bad players, as you can just reload, and generally were a lot deeper (100bb's+) vs sit n goRarely, as were never really deep enough, were most likely 4bet shoving in most spots/calling a 3bet shove/folding to the 3bet vs tournament? Thanks

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Don't know what else to add, hopefully a cash game/MTT guru can answer this better.

Fold to 3bet. What worse hands are you expecting to call when you shove the flop?

@Wizzim. I pretty much agree with your opinions, and I don't think it's fair to say that I "didn't play it well" cause he can just as easily show up with K10, QJ, Q10, 98, 910, 8s, junk, etc as Aces, unless you're being results oriented. I only flatted with KJ cause we were so deep, and considering I put him on a pretty wide range I figured if I hit the flop I could play the KJ pretty well.

@WVHillbilly: considering I put him on a pretty wide range, I was expecting anything from QJ/K10 to 910/89/9s and lower. It was low stakes and he bet pot on a coordinated board (J10/two spades) so I put him on a pair/draw/air, just a standard c-bet. If he had trips (or a lot of the time As/Ks/Qs) he's checking to me and hoping to raise

Henreiman said:

@Wizzim. I pretty much agree with your opinions, and I don't think it's fair to say that I "didn't play it well" cause he can just as easily show up with K10, QJ, Q10, 98, 910, 8s, junk, etc as Aces, unless you're being results oriented.How am i being results orientated? when i don't know the result? And i'm not sure of the stake your playing, but if it's low limit, then 'generally' a random players 3betting range is quite tight, that is my opinion, if you had a read on the guy, why wouldn't you mention it? I only flatted with KJ cause we were so deep60 bb's isn't that deep is it? to be calling and 8bb raise after you raise 3bb. the implied odds arnt there, are they?, and considering I put him on a pretty wide range I figured if I hit the flop I could play the KJ pretty well.What i mean by 'not play well postflop' is, your hand can be dominated easily by his 3betting range, AK AQ AJ are all hands that are way more common to 3bet than the one's you mention. Again, that is my opinion.I just don't think a low limti player is going to 3bet light very often, they are mostly passive calling machines.

@WVHillbilly: considering I put him on a pretty wide range, I was expecting anything from QJ/K10 to 910/89/9s and lower. It was low stakes and he bet pot on a coordinated board (J10/two spades) so I put him on a pair/draw/air, just a standard c-bet. If he had trips (or a lot of the time As/Ks/Qs) he's checking to me and hoping to raise

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..

IF you had no read like you said, how can you put him on a wide range. Personally, i wouldnt call a 3-bet without a monster or a solid read.

You did call and you hit your J which is exactly wat you wanted. You were convinced he had garbage. Therefore you stacked off. Im sure you wanted a fold after the shove, because face it your only getting called by better with your shove.. Thats what happens when you listen to your gut.



Also if you dont want people to be result orientated( not saying they are) you can post In HA forum. Im sure you'll get the same input though. Fold pre-flop.




Edit: Answer to your questions.



My question is how to avoid a spot like that. Fold dominated hands. I.e K-q K-j K-10 Q-j Q-10 A-q a-j a-10

Also a read on your opponent changes things.

What types of hands should I just be folding to someone without a read and what types of hands should I be calling, or should I never be folding, or should I always be folding?

The hands you should be folding are the hands i listed up there. There trouble hands.

Types of hands to call are A-K JJ QQ KK AA (10 10) maybe. (A-Qs iffy) <--Villian dependent


Hope that answers your questions.

Great answer, Teebone, I would have done similar to Henreiman, in future I will fold my trouble hands in a similar spot.

imo, very few players make a full psb cbet unless they virtually have the current nuts and are charging an obvious draw. You didn't say whether the flop was rainbow or not, but an overpair is going to be worried about at least KQ and 98 on that flop. The absolute worst hand I'd expect him to show after cbetting pot would be AJ.

I suggest thinking about the flops we're comfortable getting action with (AQT, KJx, KKx, JJx, KKK, JJJ, QTx), those that give us a really good chance of putting our stack in bad (any flop w a single J or K and no oesd), and those we're going to fold immediately (any other flop). The last category is not insignificant when you consider we've put 13% of our stack in pf.

Henreiman said:

I put him on a pretty wide range, I was expecting anything from QJ/K10 to 910/89/9s and lower.

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You state in the original post that you have no reads on this opponent. But you then go on to say you had him on the above range!!? Where did that come from? With no reads you can't just assume he's going to be 3-betting this lightly. In this spot, it's best to give players the benefit of the doubt until you have more information on them. Especially at lower limits where players will rarely 3-bet this light...

With no reads, it's never wrong to fold KJ to a three bet.


For real?

When he reraises your kjo is no good without reads there's no way of knowing if he reraises light here there will be better spots to get your chips in generally with a unknown player.

Muck pre-flop. I don't disagree with raising with KJ on the button, but only when you're stealing for significant blinds. You have 60 bb's, the blinds aren't really worth your stealing.

To the 3bet muck as again, in two situations.
You muck due to the blinds being insignificant to fight over and you can easily give up this worthless fight and play with 57 BB's.

In another situation where the blinds are deeper and worth fighting for, you still muck to the 3bet, although raise on the button, because KJ is an easily dominated hand and he's much less likely to play back at you with deep blinds.

This leads to the action post-flop. So okay you called pre-flop, misclick lets say, the best you can be hoping for with his bet here is AQ or AK, with no read on him. And even with these hands AQ has a 33% chance and AK has a 25% chance, so making this call is really brave knowing this is the BEST you're possibly hoping for. Much more likely he has QQ, KK, AA. Even AJ beats you here.

I appreciate the input.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

Muck pre-flop. I don't disagree with raising with KJ on the button, but only when you're stealing for significant blinds. You have 60 bb's, the blinds aren't really worth your stealing.

To the 3bet muck as again, in two situations.
You muck due to the blinds being insignificant to fight over and you can easily give up this worthless fight and play with 57 BB's.

In another situation where the blinds are deeper and worth fighting for, you still muck to the 3bet, although raise on the button, because KJ is an easily dominated hand and he's much less likely to play back at you with deep blinds.

This leads to the action post-flop. So okay you called pre-flop, misclick lets say, the best you can be hoping for with his bet here is AQ or AK, with no read on him. And even with these hands AQ has a 33% chance and AK has a 25% chance, so making this call is really brave knowing this is the BEST you're possibly hoping for. Much more likely he has QQ, KK, AA. Even AJ beats you here.

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In micros it's likely they have big pr or AK/AQ... but in higher buyins they could have a wayyyyyy wider range than this (although not likely unless blinds were higher w antes & worth 3betting to pick you off).

I wouldn't suggest just folding pre with KJ otb (but would fold to a 3bet unless the guy's size of 3bet is small & I'm priced in)

twoturntablez said:

With no reads, it's never wrong to fold KJ to a three bet.


For real?

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Yeah,for real. KJ can be a nice hand, but can also be trouble. Just because it's 2 face cards doesn't mean you're strong. I could have easily folded after the reraise, not having reads on this guy.

twoturntablez said:

With no reads, it's never wrong to fold KJ to a three bet.


For real?

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Um yeah, that's pretty standard. I don't really understand how you can be so shocked.

If we have no reads we can't assume he is three betting light. What are we going to do if we flat that three bet and miss or hit our K or our J? We have no clue where we are in the hand. Playing in the three bet pots with KJ and no reads on the villain is just asking for trouble.

Fold 100% of the time with no read.

Agree with the consensus. Open raising KJ from the button with 60bb is standard (whatever the blinds), no problem there, but folding to the 3-bet should be auto without a good read. Easily dominated hand, no reads to indicate a light 3bet range from villain, stack sizes are awkward (not conducive to a great implied odds situation while he's still deep enough to hurt you bad), he's only folding worse hands on the shove, etc. etc. Lots of reasons to release pre-flop on this one.

^^ I just don't understand why the blinds are worth fighting for here..

-Phil Ivey27 said:

^^ I just don't understand why the blinds are worth fighting for here..

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Huh? Who's fighting? Calling the 3bet is fighting and was a bad move, but blinds are certainly worth stealing uncontested from the button. Why turn down free chips? KJ is a decent opening hand OTB, especially when deep relative to blinds and you can get away cheap when 3bet or facing a scary flop. The problem with OP's play was that he chose to stay and fight.

In fact basic position strategy espoused by some tourney authors say you should pretty much always open raise ATC OTB when it's not detrimental to your stack, unless you have a very specific read that says otherwise (such as maniac blind defenders). You'll make far more than you'll lose since most of the time the blinds won't have a hand worth defending out of position. Of course you need good post-flop skills and discipline to get away from it if you have to, but most of the time you won't have to. Very occasionally a savvy player will pick up on your pure position play and play back at you, so then you adjust.

TPC said:

Um yeah, that's pretty standard. I don't really understand how you can be so shocked.

If we have no reads we can't assume he is three betting light. What are we going to do if we flat that three bet and miss or hit our K or our J? We have no clue where we are in the hand. Playing in the three bet pots with KJ and no reads on the villain is just asking for trouble.

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I think twoturn may have misread your statement.. I did at first, lol.. had to reread it and missed the word, "never" in there.. I was a bit confused at first, especially coming from TPC.... but then I reread it and saw my mistake.


Anyways.. to throw in my 2cents at the OP.. with a rereraise like that preflop.. I would fold the KJ. The hands that I would flat call here are AKs, AKo, AQs, JJ, 1010, 99... and reraise with AA or KK. I find QQ to be okay to flat call or reraise; fold all else. But that's just me.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

Muck pre-flop. I don't disagree with raising with KJ on the button, but only when you're stealing for significant blinds. You have 60 bb's, the blinds aren't really worth your stealing.

To the 3bet muck as again, in two situations.
You muck due to the blinds being insignificant to fight over and you can easily give up this worthless fight and play with 57 BB's.

In another situation where the blinds are deeper and worth fighting for, you still muck to the 3bet, although raise on the button, because KJ is an easily dominated hand and he's much less likely to play back at you with deep blinds.

This leads to the action post-flop. So okay you called pre-flop, misclick lets say, the best you can be hoping for with his bet here is AQ or AK, with no read on him. And even with these hands AQ has a 33% chance and AK has a 25% chance, so making this call is really brave knowing this is the BEST you're possibly hoping for. Much more likely he has QQ, KK, AA. Even AJ beats you here.

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put a similar post up myself not too long ago and this is exactly the answer to my questions tyvm!

W/o reads fold the amateur hand to a 3bet 100% of the time.