How to play set on a flush-draw board?

needaGF · Feb 24, 2013

I believe there is a similar post and I can't really find it.

I was in a 20-place-paid tourney and there are about 60 people left. I was then placed 42.
I am BTN holding KK. I have about 15BB and two limped in before me. I raised to 5BB and the blinds fold. One of the limpers calls. He has about 30BB.

Flop K98 three spades. He checks, I think he has a flush draw, but his hand has not made yet. I think I should play fast with the best hand. I bet 2/3 pot and he thought a while and called.

Turn 2d. He checks and I push all-in. He called with a As7d.

The river is a spade 3. I was done. I think he should not call my bet on the turn and on the river because the odds are not good enough. But he calls and gets rewarded.

Any opinion is welcome!

spunka · Feb 24, 2013

needaGF said:
I am BTN holding KK. I have about 15BB and two limped in before me. I raised to 5BB and the blinds fold. One of the limpers calls. He has about 30BB.

Flop K98 three spades. He checks, I think he has a flush draw, but his hand has not made yet. I think I should play fast with the best hand. I bet 2/3 pot and he thought a while and called.

U could say you were just unlucky that he got it and your play is correct.
On the other hand you make him commit chips on the flop (shove on flop) instead of making the 2/3 bet which is making him more likely to call the Next street also.
Alternativ with a board like that just keep the pot low till the river as he have you outchipped, and you wanna go in the Money. You have position on him you don't have to raise.

left52side · Feb 24, 2013

I agree completly with above,except for the whole not raising part lol.
I agree that yes you should have pushed on the flop,being you really only had about 10 big blinds after your pre flop raise,and doubt you would have found a better spot,
But honestly I cant imagine why villian would call I 5 big blind bet with A 7 os.
But yeah if he is calling with that,then when they seen three spades out there odds are they wernt going anywhere anyway and you still would have got out drawn.
My advice is when your 10 big blinds or under and hold pocket kings you have to shove preflop,I knbow you want value for the kings,but you jeapordize to much of your stack to see an ace of flop and be forced to fold.
But if you want to play it risky and see flop then flop a set ,you absolutly have to push. JMHO.

dj11 · Feb 24, 2013

The odds you gave him were not sufficient to drive him off his hand.

With only 15 BB'S shove pre.

inflnlte · Feb 24, 2013

Id probably shove preflop especially when you have a couple of limpers. Theres 3-4bbs out there depending on the ante so its good enough to steal and if you get called thats even better.

Lucothefish · Feb 25, 2013

so on the flop you had 10bbs left and pot was 11.5bb? How did you leave anything to push on the turn?

Shove pre or shove flop

kanselau · Feb 25, 2013

dj11 said:
The odds you gave him were not sufficient to drive him off his hand.

With only 15 BB'S shove pre.

On the flop we are about 70% favorite and on the river we are like 80% to win the hand , we dont want to drive anyone of their hand we are betting for value and want him to call. Which ever line works best to get him to call off his tack is good here. I probably dont mind a shove on the flop here as we are never folding this anyway and want to get maximum value, bet is ok but looks stronger IMO.
Dont mind the 3bet pre either , we got a strong hand with a small stack , anything that works here is good , if a shove will get folds then 3bet is better.

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

spunka said:
U could say you were just unlucky that he got it and your play is correct.
On the other hand you make him commit chips on the flop (shove on flop) instead of making the 2/3 bet which is making him more likely to call the Next street also.
Alternativ with a board like that just keep the pot low till the river as he have you outchipped, and you wanna go in the Money. You have position on him you don't have to raise.

I am worrying he may have flush so I did not shove on the flop...

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

spunka said:
Alternativ with a board like that just keep the pot low till the river as he have you outchipped, and you wanna go in the Money. You have position on him you don't have to raise.

I dont quite understand with this strategy, could u explain it a little?

Thx

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

left52side said:
I agree completly with above,except for the whole not raising part lol.
I agree that yes you should have pushed on the flop,being you really only had about 10 big blinds after your pre flop raise,and doubt you would have found a better spot,
But honestly I cant imagine why villian would call I 5 big blind bet with A 7 os.
But yeah if he is calling with that,then when they seen three spades out there odds are they wernt going anywhere anyway and you still would have got out drawn.
My advice is when your 10 big blinds or under and hold pocket kings you have to shove preflop,I knbow you want value for the kings,but you jeapordize to much of your stack to see an ace of flop and be forced to fold.
But if you want to play it risky and see flop then flop a set ,you absolutly have to push. JMHO.

Thanks for your reply. Actually I think he would call me because I always raise 3BB - 5BB when I am on the Button. He might think that I was just stealing the pot. Yeah when there is an ante and I have less than 10BB I will definitely shove. But I would not do that with 15BB. The probability the flop has an Ace is very low, rite?

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

inflnlte said:
Id probably shove preflop especially when you have a couple of limpers. Theres 3-4bbs out there depending on the ante so its good enough to steal and if you get called thats even better.

Yes I hesitated also, but I really want to get some value for my KK. If I was under 10BB I will definately shove.

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

Lucothefish said:
so on the flop you had 10bbs left and pot was 11.5bb? How did you leave anything to push on the turn?

Shove pre or shove flop

I did not shove flop cuz I fear he has made the flush...

needaGF · Feb 26, 2013

Lucothefish said:
so on the flop you had 10bbs left and pot was 11.5bb? How did you leave anything to push on the turn?

Shove pre or shove flop

Actually I would probably fold if he raise my 2/3 pot bet.

Lucothefish · Feb 27, 2013

needaGF said:
Actually I would probably fold if he raise my 2/3 pot bet.

Firstly, your opponent has far more combos of 1 spade and no spade hands than 2 spade hands. Don't shut down on mono flops, especially with a hand as strong as a set (which has redraws to a full house anyway).

Second, when you put in 1/3 of your stack you are committing yourself to the hand and should almost never fold regardless of flop texture. To bet 2/3 pot and fold would leave you with about 2bbs, so you're investing 13bbs and ditching the hand. This is really, really bad.

I don't think you want to shove pre, you want to extract value here with KK. But with top set and less than a pot sized bet behind it's a really straightforward shove on the flop.

spunka · Feb 27, 2013

needaGF said:
I dont quite understand with this strategy, could u explain it a little?

Thx

That is also rubbish, as I didn't see that you were only on 15BB when I made that post.
Think you raise is fine but you should shove on the flop.
Ask you self this question, what will I do with KK if the turn is an A.
So fine call /raise / shove is all good pre flop, after the flop only shove is good if not A hit the board, if an A hit then you have to revaulate.

Poker Orifice · Feb 27, 2013

spunka said:
That is also rubbish, as I didn't see that you were only on 15BB when I made that post.
Think you raise is fine but you should shove on the flop.
Ask you self this question, what will I do with KK if the turn is an A.
So fine call /raise / shove is all good pre flop, after the flop only shove is good if not A hit the board, if an A hit then you have to revaulate.

what? OP flopped top set with ~ pot-sized bet left in their stack. (this is a shove here no matter what OPs holding & hopefully villain realizes this & calls it off with marginal (or whatever the fk they have.... it doesn't really matter).

Poker Orifice · Feb 27, 2013

dj11 said:
The odds you gave him were not sufficient to drive him off his hand.
With only 15 BB'S shove pre.

a) why do you want to 'drive him off his hand'?
b) why would you want to shove pre here?

dj11 · Feb 27, 2013

Poker Orifice said:
a) why do you want to 'drive him off his hand'?
b) why would you want to shove pre here?

Same answer both questions;

Mainly because we are relatively short. If I am deeper I start thinking about trapping with the KK and know how often this turns unhappy.

Once the flop hits and is flushed, I generally piss myself, slap myself for not shoving pre, then shove my set praying the board pairs.

All that angst is resolved by shoving pre.

Lucothefish · Feb 27, 2013

dj11 said:
Same answer both questions;

Mainly because we are relatively short. If I am deeper I start thinking about trapping with the KK and know how often this turns unhappy.

Once the flop hits and is flushed, I generally piss myself, slap myself for not shoving pre, then shove my set praying the board pairs.

All that angst is resolved by shoving pre.

Mono flops happen like 5% of the time and they have a made flush even less of the time.

Aces hit around 1 in 6 flops.

I don't like shoving KK 15bbs deep when I can raise smaller for value.

needaGF · Feb 27, 2013

Lucothefish said:
Mono flops happen like 5% of the time and they have a made flush even less of the time.

Aces hit around 1 in 6 flops.

I don't like shoving KK 15bbs deep when I can raise smaller for value.

Yes that's what I mean.

needaGF · Feb 27, 2013

Lucothefish said:
Firstly, your opponent has far more combos of 1 spade and no spade hands than 2 spade hands. Don't shut down on mono flops, especially with a hand as strong as a set (which has redraws to a full house anyway).

Second, when you put in 1/3 of your stack you are committing yourself to the hand and should almost never fold regardless of flop texture. To bet 2/3 pot and fold would leave you with about 2bbs, so you're investing 13bbs and ditching the hand. This is really, really bad.

I don't think you want to shove pre, you want to extract value here with KK. But with top set and less than a pot sized bet behind it's a really straightforward shove on the flop.

OK thanks for your info. I have now really learned your ideas.

spunka · Feb 28, 2013

Poker Orifice said:
what? OP flopped top set with ~ pot-sized bet left in their stack. (this is a shove here no matter what OPs holding & hopefully villain realizes this & calls it off with marginal (or whatever the fk they have.... it doesn't really matter).

Think you raise is fine but you should shove on the flop.

Looks like we do agree on what should be done at the flop.

snklzona · Feb 28, 2013

I think I would have shoved pre...I know value is wanted on KK but risk is great
with alot of people thinking Arag is good hand...gl next time and blinds are better than being out...

How to play set on a flush-draw board?

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