How to play set on a board with flush draw

T

Tim3254

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Total posts
31
Chips
0
I just ran into a situation, that time and time again makes me scratch my head. It's early in the tournament (blinds 25/50, starting stack 4k-5k), so there are plenty of more times to make a move. I call preflop with a small pocket pair and hit a set on the flop. Only thing is that their are 2 diamonds on the flop for a possible flush draw. I am first to act and check to hope to check raise somebody. One person bets 125, and there is another caller. I raise to 625 total when action comes back to me and they both fold.

My dilemma is that I like to size my bets to get the draws out of there. I was hoping that somebody with top pair top kicker would call my raise. Would it be possibly a good idea to try and milk the set for more value (this is always what I worry about)? Did I play my set too aggressively?
The things I had issue with was that their were 3 other people in the pot, and a flush draw on the board, I did not want to get sucked out on.
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
Don't check-raise but just donkbet straightforward (up to as much as you think will get called by at least one opponent, if in doubt bet more), if it's checked around you achieved nothing.

~2/3 pot

We don't want to push anyone off the draw but we want them to stay and pay (there will be other non-fd combos that will call you down anyway, too).

If you get reraised fistpump shove and hope for callers.

Checkraising telephraphs your set btw.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
why do you want to get draws out?
 
T

Tim3254

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Total posts
31
Chips
0
why do you want to get draws out?

Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.
So you want to push him out of the hand?
Why?
Just let him pay you off, and then just quitely fold if he gets lucky.
Or take all his chips when he gets there and you get a boat or quads.
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Total posts
4,271
Awards
2
Chips
0
I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


-
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
You don't bet to win the hand, you bet because you have a set and you want worse hands to call. Winning or losing the hand is irrelevant.
 
D

dgking

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Total posts
120
Chips
0
Don't check-raise but just donkbet straightforward (up to as much as you think will get called by at least one opponent, if in doubt bet more), if it's checked around you achieved nothing.

~2/3 pot

We don't want to push anyone off the draw but we want them to stay and pay (there will be other non-fd combos that will call you down anyway, too).

If you get reraised fistpump shove and hope for callers.

Checkraising telephraphs your set btw.

most people arent going to fold a flush draw on the flop if there calling 2/3rd pot, otherwise they wouldnt play flush draw types of hands seeing as that is usually standard bet size. donk bet sounds like a great way to get paid, most of the time u get raised when donkbetting a flop so i would say gowith that, good advice grafkarow, i rarely donk bet myself. If i do im probably on top of my game knowing its a valueable decision that will more likely get me paid then checking oop.
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

Yes you want him to stay in the hand. with bad odds. If he pays more than he should he loses $ev and who do you think gains what he loses? If you jsut try and take pots down the second we hit a set and there are 2 suited cards then we're taking away the implied odds that we have that justify playing PP in multiway pots.
 
jbbb

jbbb

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Total posts
1,384
Chips
0
Get flopzilla and play with ranges and board textures. Even if villain plays only suited cards and there is a possible flush draw, they'll have that flush draw 20% of the time. Same scenario, but three flush on the flop, there is a 15% chance they have a flush. Therefore i'm not scared of flushes any more, there range is so much wider than that.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
I just ran into a situation, that time and time again makes me scratch my head. It's early in the tournament (blinds 25/50, starting stack 4k-5k), so there are plenty of more times to make a move. I call preflop with a small pocket pair and hit a set on the flop. Only thing is that their are 2 diamonds on the flop for a possible flush draw. I am first to act and check to hope to check raise somebody. One person bets 125, and there is another caller. I raise to 625 total when action comes back to me and they both fold.

My dilemma is that I like to size my bets to get the draws out of there. I was hoping that somebody with top pair top kicker would call my raise. Would it be possibly a good idea to try and milk the set for more value (this is always what I worry about)? Did I play my set too aggressively?
The things I had issue with was that their were 3 other people in the pot, and a flush draw on the board, I did not want to get sucked out on.

I think leading out the flop with two diamonds on board is better than check raising.

I also don't like slow playing a set unless I'm agaisnt areally aggro player and board is very dry.
 
T

Tim3254

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Total posts
31
Chips
0
Get flopzilla and play with ranges and board textures. Even if villain plays only suited cards and there is a possible flush draw, they'll have that flush draw 20% of the time. Same scenario, but three flush on the flop, there is a 15% chance they have a flush. Therefore i'm not scared of flushes any more, there range is so much wider than that.

So does flopzilla do other things that pokerstove doesn't do? If so, this is exactly what I need to boost my confidence :) Thanks for the advice!
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
A flopped set is a 3:1 favorite over a flopped flush draw. If he misses the turn and you don't boat up, you're then a 6.5:1 favorite. If I think I can induce an aggro player to get it in with those odds on either street, I'm fistpumping.

So does flopzilla do other things that pokerstove doesn't do? If so, this is exactly what I need to boost my confidence :) Thanks for the advice!

Pokerstove only calculates equity. It does it well, but that's all it does, and it's an abandoned tool that will likely never be updated. Other tools like Flopzilla, Combonator, and Slice do what PokerStove does and then some, such as combo analysis and how often ranges hit given boards.
 
smokeme

smokeme

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Total posts
493
Chips
0
what if you dont really know that they got the flush and it came on the turn do you check and see if they bet and call them down or just fold and risk gettin bluffed?
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,596
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


-
So basically try to win the minimum? Push? What like 5x pot? (cuz OP is referring to a spot where they're 100bb's deep in early levels).
 
olliejjc16

olliejjc16

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 18, 2011
Total posts
521
Chips
0
i'd always push in this situation, better to win a small pot than to lose a big one!
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
You push 100BB deep when you hit a set of a FD board? If we do that then we should fold pre-flop as we're completely getting rid of the odds that justify playing PP's pre.
 
olliejjc16

olliejjc16

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 18, 2011
Total posts
521
Chips
0
I'm just saying what I would do, not saying its right! Any time I raise with a set on the flop a flush draw always seems to call and when the turn hits I'm usually not sure how to play it if the third flush card hits. I usually raise about a 3/4 pot bet but if they call or raise I'm never sure how to play it and I usually end up losing a load of chips usually by trying to get him out of the hand when he has hit his flush. That's why I usually play it safe and raise all in post-flop if someone else has raised. Since I usually play low stakes or freerolls, players with flush draws are a lot more likely to call I've noticed, so most of the time you should win, and when you don't its just bad luck really.

That's in a different situation though to what the original poster stated, I really should have fully read the post! With the blinds that small, 3-4x what the other person raised is definitely a sufficient bet for a set.

I'm still trying to learn though so any advice on what I'm doing wrong would be great! Sorry for hijacking the thread btw.
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
Post your HHs in analysis section on hands like that if you're struggling with what you should be doing, obviously each situation is different like in this one I'd probably donk bet the flop, whereas some others are fine to check-raise.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Because I don't want to get beaten by a flush draw?

I know betting 2/3 pot is a good size because it gives flush draws bad odds. But do I want the flush draws to stay and pay? If a third diamond hits I'm toast, and have to fold the hand. This is what always erks me.

You should want them calling their flush draws when your giving them incorrect odds.

Of course you want flush draws to stay forever that's how you win money. If a diamond does hit and you're 100% sure they have it, then fold unless you're commited it's them who made the incorrect play by calling down in the first place.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
i'd always push in this situation, better to win a small pot than to lose a big one!

So basically lose value for your monster hands everytime?

Why not just shove every pair PF and A,K if you don't want to play an easy monster like a set post flop.

It's terrible to win a small pot by pushing someone of a draw, the worse play in the and you're basically costing yourself money doing this and what on earth do you want getting paid for if not a set?
 
D

dgking

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Total posts
120
Chips
0
better yet with donk betting....donkbet pot with the set, there is a decent chance somebody will raise with or without a flush draw, in which case you just got some serious value. And even if your up against a flush on the turn, your not in the wordst condition. you still have 10 outs. But i mean if your going to fold a flush draw on a flop then suited cards would be irrelevent. I call 2/3rd pot for implied odds, meaning if i hit my flush im now hoping to take the opponents money so they have to have a good stack size for my suited cards to even be playable, but you should definately not devalue your set. I would say value bet and if a diamond comes up play cautious hoping the board pairs on the river. If he shoves the turn and your certain he has the flush fold unless you want to gamble with your 10 outer
 
D

dgking

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Total posts
120
Chips
0
I'm in the 'Take wut U got whilst U can" camp. There'll be other hands..

Push when you see the flush draw. Make em pay for the next card. You're prolly gonna get the call anyway.

Been flushed out too many times.


-
sounds like youve given up on poker then. not having the courage to value bet.
 
TheCol

TheCol

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Total posts
68
Chips
0
Lets put it simple. A win is a win. You played the hand perfect.
You could have slow played the hand but if the turn was the flush card then what? Then hope you pair the board on the river after you commit more chips.If you do hit a pair on the river then you could sweep a decent pot.
But the more cards you let people see the worst off you are. I dont know what your starting hand was, you said you had a small pair. What if you slow played the hand and some one hits a set on the turn thats bigger than yours, not good. See what I mean, you played the hand perfect. Like I said a win is a win. So if you start to get greedy it can bite you back.
I always make people pay to see another card. Dont down yourself for your play, you won chips.
 
Full Flush Poker
Top