How To Play Against Collusion

Hi guys,

Please bear with me here as I am still a bit new to the game, but I hope this thread can benefit more players than just myself. I noticed a similar thread on collusion in freerolls, but this situation is slightly different.

I was playing a micro-stakes SNG on a site I made freeroll money off and was in the lead with 9,000 chips.

There were three other players remaining at the table, two of which were Greeks who briefly talked in Greek in the chatbox at the start of the game. Player0, Greek1, and Greek2 all had around 2,000 chips.

Everyone remaining was playing pretty tight as only the top 3 got any money and everyone's raises were being given a lot of respect, including my own - I knew something was up so just wanted to play as tight as possible to understand what was going on exactly.

Then in the next 3 hands this happens (apologies for my quick photoshop edit ):

Hand 1:



Why would Greek2 check top pair with an Ace kicker all the way till the end against Greek1? I suppose it could be argued the Q is a scare card, the diamond is a scare card, and he just played it badly, but okay then we'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now as just another bad and passive player.

Hand 2:



Hmm, bad passive player Greek2 tries to steal the pot as he notices everyone is playing tight, runs into trouble. Maybe he was just a bad player in general, not so passive after all.

Hand 3:



Greek2 gets called with 2/3s of his stack in the pot because of his blind by Greek1. Naturally Greek2 raises the rest of his small remaining stack, and Greek1 should call - no wait, folds... hmm, yes, I guess the extra 1/3 of Greek2's impressive stack was just too much for Greek1 to call there, makes real sense...

This collusion was so blatantly obvious to me playing with these guys for hours, but obviously the example I have given you alone wouldn't be enough to report collusion;

1. It is micro-stakes and they could just be any two bad Greek players that have played against each-other before who happen to chat to each-other.

2. I don't care enough to report it as I only use this website for freerolls and microstakes and haven't deposited/withdrawn yet.

3. I think it could be easily played against. For example, hand 3 I was very tempted to raise Greek2 all-in because J9 is a decent hand against any 2 cards and Player0/Greek1 were both playing tight and respecting my raises with my chip stack etc.

But I was just interested to see it play out and I didn't want to end up losing because of the collusion. In the end I only came second anyway, but I had it all-in twice with the best cards - no complaints there, just got unlucky.

The problem is I lost to Greek1, who was in a similar position to Greek2 earlier in the game, and was helped out by Greek2 similarly to this as well (it's just over a longer hand time with more players and I don't want to bore you or myself any longer with the details).

Nevertheless, reading this thread, did you consider this collusion based on the small evidence I have presented here or are you still sceptical if it is or not?

Secondly, assuming it is collusion, would you report it and if so how/why?

Finally, have you played against collusion before and do you know any good tips to combat it whilst in a game?

Sorry for the long post, but thanks in advance for any help guys.

I would at the very least report it. I doubt there is enough evidence here for the site to do anything about it but it will raise suspicions and could motivate them to look at hand histories to see how often these players are playing together. Could lead to something but I'd think they'd need to find more evidence before banning anyone. Let us know how this turns out

I would report them to support first of all and then if I don't get the response or even money back for playing against colluding I would insta-uninstall the software of the site, why would you want to play against colluders? the only way to play against them is to not play against them if you catch my drift

Hand 1. I would have played just like Geek2, worried the other person would call a raise to chase a diamond flush. A raise I would call, an all in I would fold.
Hand 3. If you are yelling at Geek1 for folding 275 chips, some yelling at Player0 is in order for folding 200 chips. I mean he was the small blind of 200, 200 more chips to see the flop is nothing. I mean if Geek1 had AK and player0 had QJ, they could be colluding to get Geek2 out of the game. By Geek1 folding he is showing he still fears Player0 will place 2nd and Geek1 wants 2nd if first is not possible. Also folding, still let's him have more chips than Geek2.

This is just bad play, not even close to collusion. Also in hand 2 Greek 1 doesn't even take any action, how does that make you think collusion

I had a similar situation recently myself. I reported the issue to support after the tournament but nothing has come of it on my end. I imagine that online it is difficult for poker rooms to prove collusion. What site were you playing on?

tony4680 said:

I would at the very least report it. I doubt there is enough evidence here for the site to do anything about it but it will raise suspicions and could motivate them to look at hand histories to see how often these players are playing together. Could lead to something but I'd think they'd need to find more evidence before banning anyone. Let us know how this turns out

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Thanks. Support said to e-mail them with the names and table if I want to report it so I might send them an e-mail in case anyone else has reported anything similar or they want to check it out.

bernotas22 said:

I would report them to support first of all and then if I don't get the response or even money back for playing against colluding I would insta-uninstall the software of the site, why would you want to play against colluders? the only way to play against them is to not play against them if you catch my drift

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The thing is, I won more money by playing against them (although I lost my chip lead) but I don't really want my money back as that would be less. It is just a moral issue about whether to report what I felt I saw after playing many hands with these guys. I'm 90% sure they are colluding, or at least 100% sure they are playing easier against each-other for whatever reasons.

I understand what you are saying, I was just wondering if there was a decent strategy anyone has used before to play against players who are playing easier against each-other, or helping each-other stay in the game. I'm sure I have seen in high stakes games, not so much collusion, but people not wanting to play the same away against their buddies who they have may have some stake in.

Objectively speaking, online it is hard to separate a player not wanting to play against a certain player and definitely knowing players see each-other's cards.

jimmylytle2 said:

Hand 1. I would have played just like Geek2, worried the other person would call a raise to chase a diamond flush. A raise I would call, an all in I would fold.
Hand 3. If you are yelling at Geek1 for folding 275 chips, some yelling at Player0 is in order for folding 200 chips. I mean he was the small blind of 200, 200 more chips to see the flop is nothing. I mean if Geek1 had AK and player0 had QJ, they could be colluding to get Geek2 out of the game. By Geek1 folding he is showing he still fears Player0 will place 2nd and Geek1 wants 2nd if first is not possible. Also folding, still let's him have more chips than Geek2.

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Hand 1. Why would you not have raised an AJs pre-flop, or when the flop hit? If it is because you are playing super tight then why would you raise a K9s in the next hand that your buddy has less of a stake in?

Hand 3. Difference is Greek1 had the choice to not enter the hand at all. Calling 400 is essentially like betting 400 in his situation at that time. Why would he call 400 when he realises his opponent has 675 chips left and 400 are already in the pot, if he wasn't prepared for the next 275 going in. It is a terrible play to call and fold there if you don't want to give your chips away. He isn't that bad of a player. He was 3/10 at that time and went on to win the SNG when his buddy got knocked out.

loafes said:

This is just bad play, not even close to collusion. Also in hand 2 Greek 1 doesn't even take any action, how does that make you think collusion

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Why would Greek2 not raise an AJs against Greek1 but raise a K9s against Player0? If they play that bad then why are they in the remaining 4/10 in the SNG and 1 of them won the thing. These are just 3 hands in a row from hours of play, because they stand out as exceptionally bad play if you honestly want to beat your opponent. I don't have the time to post them all.

docdrew said:

I had a similar situation recently myself. I reported the issue to support after the tournament but nothing has come of it on my end. I imagine that online it is difficult for poker rooms to prove collusion. What site were you playing on?

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Yes, I do not expect anything to come of it on my end because it is hard to prove if you aren't in the situation yourself. I was playing on the iPoker network for a British site, I won't give the name as I don't want to damage its reputation and I'm not 100% sure yet. It has generally been very good with me - I have won a lot of freeroll money off it which bankrolls my cash games and helps me learn poker better at more significant stakes without the risk on my end.

Sounds like you want to literally play alongside colluders or learn to play against them as you say, well I don't understand why you would want to but the strategy I guess would be to try to be unpredictable and adjust your play like always and then the colluders would seemingly not have that edge, maybe they would even be at a disadvantage if you mixed it up

bernotas22 said:

Sounds like you want to literally play alongside colluders or learn to play against them as you say, well I don't understand why you would want to but the strategy I guess would be to try to be unpredictable and adjust your play like always and then the colluders would seemingly not have that edge, maybe they would even be at a disadvantage if you mixed it up

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Obviously, ideally I would not want to play against any colluders, but it is a part of the game that I recognise on occasion. However, generally I expect my observations to be taken as seriously as jimmylytle2 and loafes took them...

As docdrew says, nothing will probably come of it for the player who reports it at the time - it might just help future players if someone else reports it as well. But I have also heard of players who have been incorrectly banned from 888 for chip dumping when they have just tried to mix their play up a bit and made mistakes.

If you noticed colluding, and support said there wasn't sufficient evidence to ban them or refund you for it, would you really stop playing poker there? There are only so many places to play poker online. A lot of the systems are the same even if you move sites so I don't think it solves the overall problem. It's just a flaw in the online game.

n3rv said:

Finally, have you played against collusion before and do you know any good tips to combat it whilst in a game?

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I have played against colluders on many occasions and I must say it wasn't that hard at all. In my experience, colluders in SNGs or DoNs tend to be pretty tight, so playing overly aggressive against them is the best option, especially if you have a big stack, you shouldn't be playing tight at all, you should be exploiting and bullying them, especially on the bubble. It really doesn't matter much whether they are colluders or not, by being too passive you missed a great chance to win an easy tournament.

AvaloNNN said:

I have played against colluders on many occasions and I must say it wasn't that hard at all. In my experience, colluders in SNGs or DoNs tend to be pretty tight, so playing overly aggressive against them is the best option, especially if you have a big stack, you shouldn't be playing tight at all, you should be exploiting and bullying them, especially on the bubble. It really doesn't matter much whether they are colluders or not, by being too passive you missed a great chance to win an easy tournament.

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Thanks. That is what I was thinking as I was playing. When the rest of the table is that tight, it pays to be more aggressive. I just wasn't sure if it could still work with collusion, but as long as they can't see my cards then it really shouldn't matter too much.

easy answer dont play against them and report it. Most sites have software to detect suspicious activities and colusion.

ALso if you suspected it why would you want to play, either they are and you are at a big disadvantage or if they arent your mind wont be able to focus on the game properly because you will be analysing each hand for collusion

rhombus said:

easy answer dont play against them and report it. Most sites have software to detect suspicious activities and colusion.

ALso if you suspected it why would you want to play, either they are and you are at a big disadvantage or if they arent your mind wont be able to focus on the game properly because you will be analysing each hand for collusion

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Fair points.

I sent a polite e-mail reporting it. I mentioned that I had played over 12,000 hands on their software, enjoyed it, and had never had a problem, but I was now hesitant to play higher stakes on their client because of this incident.

Will let you know how it turns out tony4680, bernotas22, docdrew, and rhombus - thank you all for your replies here.

Hey guys,

Just an update on the situation. Support sent it to their security department, investigated it, and have frozen the two player accounts while they continue their investigation.

I feel it has been taken seriously. Whether anything further will come of it, I'm still unsure, but at least my conscience is clear with regards to doing the right thing for the poker community.

that could easily be bad play.

I was once accused of colluding in a live tourney. It was just me and one other girl at a table with a bunch of guys. I didn't know the girl, but we had made polite chit chat as girls at the poker table often do.

There were 2 limpers then she was on the button and shipped for just a little bit more than a min raise. SB folded. I was in the BB with 92 offsuit and I folded.

They accused me of chip dumping. Whatever, I was a medium stack and the 2 limpers had me covered and the action was opened back up to them if they wanted to raise and isolate.

I think my play was fine, you all might think it was terrible. But it was not collusion. There is a lot more to tourney strategy than just the pot odds of calling. Having something in common with another player and then declining to pursue good pot odds does not equal collusion or soft play.

sorry man i didnt see anything that resembled collusion. hard to say off of 2 or 3 hands but both ways it looked fine to me.gl in your future games bro lol