How Many Big Blinds to Execute Small Ball

MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
I have a buddy who is stuck in small ball mode - lot's of final tables and lots of min-cashes. He hasn't figured out he needs to shift gears to take down the nice cashes. But he won't listen to me because I am not Daniel Negreanu.
So help give me some ammo - how many BBs do you need to play effective small ball and please (so he might listen) quote your source.
Thanks
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Small ball is basically a shallow-stack cash strategy transposed to tournament format. I think you need something like 40-50BB to execute it properly.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
A basic consideration is that you want enough chips so the full range of actions is available to you pre-flop without meaningfully decreasing the playability of your stack if you enter a pot and then fold in the face of further action. One thing that's not always explicit about this is that you also want to be able to execute said full range of actions with smallball-type holdings.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Yeah... point out to your friend that even Dan himself warns in the book that if your stack gets short you have to revert to a more standard strategy.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
Aleksei said:
Yeah... point out to your friend that even Dan himself warns in the book that if your stack gets short you have to revert to a more standard strategy.
Click to expand...

Well that's the question I guess - how short is short (according to Dan the deity of poker)? I was watching him play on the tube a few weeks ago - he had 80 BB and he was definitely NOT playing small ball (but I understand that could have just been a table dynamic for him).
 
Daniel72

Daniel72

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Total posts
2,284
Awards
2
Chips
18
Aleksei said:
Small ball is basically a shallow-stack cash strategy transposed to tournament format. I think you need something like 40-50BB to execute it properly.
Click to expand...

What you mean is the short or mid stack strategy :)

I think, for small ball you need a deep stack (like in the beginning of a tourney, small blinds with big stacks) you are in a lot of pots and streets, make pot control, collect infos, minimize the risk of busting your whole stack, take a stab here and there, go for uncontested pots, and so on...
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
So in other words no one has read anything or heard any teaching on this from a book or site?

I mean I know what I think and historically what works for me and I certainly appreciate what your think and what has worked for you (which isn't too far from my own, it looks like), BUT I'm looking for help getting through to a thick headed individual. He admits it - just now applying stuff I was trying to learn him on over a year ago. But at least he acknowledges it.
Specifically what he has done is this - combined reading Negreanu (small ball) with Phil Gordon who said he's still comfortable operating with 30 BB and come up with 30 BB equals small ball. Well that is just lunacy. Sure you could take a shot with suited connectors on the button with 30 BB but that does not equate to playing small ball - that is just taking a shot. But I am convinced he just doesn't understand small ball.
And yeah, I would give up on him but when we tourney together we have 10% of each others action so I would like him to elevate his game.

So have you heard any teacher, writer, pro address this topic?
 
joker131

joker131

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Total posts
706
Chips
0
yer u got to shift up mainly at final tables. aggresion ins more than passive play. never mind how many blinds u have, look to get as many chips in without scareing other players off, theyll resort to push or fold play. but that always happens with small buyin mtt
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,753
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,020
MediaBLITZ;2142928 So have you heard any teacher said:
Well there's this one by the name of Daniel Negreanu... his section of the book is devoted to 'small ball' & basically the reason for writing the book.
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • Power Holdem.gif
    Power Holdem.gif
    35.5 KB · Views: 25
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
Poker Orifice said:
Figured Daniel had already answered the question.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had too - but cannot find it anywhere.
Just read an article by Lou Krieger that said if you have to spend +25% of your stack to see a flop then there is no sense playing small ball.
Well yeah, no shit - but is he implying if it only costs 20% of your stack to see the flop with 67s from the hijack then that's a solid small ball play?
 
E

erup24

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Total posts
11
Chips
0
If he doesnt listen and plays his own way while not learning, he's going to get what he deserves. Once he gets to the final table, he has to tighten up and play more standard. And you really cant play small ball at a final table.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
erup24 said:
If he doesnt listen and plays his own way while not learning, he's going to get what he deserves. Once he gets to the final table, he has to tighten up and play more standard. And you really cant play small ball at a final table.
Click to expand...

Yup, and he ends up getting his ass handed to him and is thrilled to have bubble money.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
MediaBLITZ said:
So in other words no one has read anything or heard any teaching on this from a book or site?

I mean I know what I think and historically what works for me and I certainly appreciate what your think and what has worked for you (which isn't too far from my own, it looks like), BUT I'm looking for help getting through to a thick headed individual. He admits it - just now applying stuff I was trying to learn him on over a year ago. But at least he acknowledges it.
Specifically what he has done is this - combined reading Negreanu (small ball) with Phil Gordon who said he's still comfortable operating with 30 BB and come up with 30 BB equals small ball. Well that is just lunacy. Sure you could take a shot with suited connectors on the button with 30 BB but that does not equate to playing small ball - that is just taking a shot. But I am convinced he just doesn't understand small ball.
And yeah, I would give up on him but when we tourney together we have 10% of each others action so I would like him to elevate his game.

So have you heard any teacher, writer, pro address this topic?
Click to expand...
I have Negreanu's book and have read it multiple times. Each time after the first reminds me that smallball can be harder to play than some people like to believe. For example, one key to his success is his exceptional ability to read opponents - not just their hands and ranges but also things like if, when and how he can outplay them so as to win chips with inferior hands. Take the fact he far better than this than just about everyone, plus factor in that he mainly plays deep stack tournaments, and it's clear that simply adopting the core concept is far from an automatic recipe for success.
 
Top