How Important is Poker Math?!?

C

cpgd176

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 31, 2010
Total posts
98
Chips
0
I've been playing poker now for about 4 years and i've never felt the need to learn or understand poker math. Sure i know the basics such as pot odds, but what are my odds to win with KQ on KQ8 if my opponent is holding AK? QQ? JT? i honestly don't know. I know how to figure it out. But my question is, is this kind of math important for every hand? And should it come natural to be able to figure out my equity in any given hand? How much does it actually help...
 
loafes

loafes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Total posts
1,049
Chips
0
Figuring out equity is very important but quite easy to learn and should come fairly quickly and naturally once learnt and put in practice. Though one question is how do you know about for example pot odds if you don't know your equity? You need to know your equity to know weather the pot odds are sufficient to make a call. It's no good knowing you are getting 3 and1/2 to one if your actual odds of winning are only 7 in one

But the general rule is your number of outs times 2 per street for chasing hands postflop. It's also worth learning some basic preflop equity charts.
 
rifflemao

rifflemao

Pugs Not Drugs
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Total posts
4,562
Awards
1
Chips
101
I've been playing poker now for about 4 years and i've never felt the need to learn or understand poker math. Sure i know the basics such as pot odds, but what are my odds to win with KQ on KQ8 if my opponent is holding AK? QQ? JT? i honestly don't know. I know how to figure it out. But my question is, is this kind of math important for every hand? And should it come natural to be able to figure out my equity in any given hand? How much does it actually help...

When you hear some of the pros talk about equity, and how often they need to win to make a call profitable long term etc, then you begin to understand why it's important to learn the math.

Let's say you shoved or called a shove in a tournament, and you lost. You can either go "oh well" and move on, or pull up Pokerstove and find out how much equity you had preflop against his hand, and against the range of hands he should have in that spot.

Knowing this stuff helps you make better decisions, and you'll eventually be playing against people who know it inside and out. You don't want Norman Chad dogging you on TV someday for not know your equity in a hand. :icon_joke
 
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
I've been playing poker now for about 4 years and i've never felt the need to learn or understand poker math. Sure i know the basics such as pot odds, but what are my odds to win with KQ on KQ8 if my opponent is holding AK? QQ? JT? i honestly don't know. I know how to figure it out. But my question is, is this kind of math important for every hand? And should it come natural to be able to figure out my equity in any given hand? How much does it actually help...

How do you know he is holding AK ? The problem is you never really know what he is holding.
 
H

hrix

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Total posts
346
Chips
0
Just watch how opponent is playing and then decide what he might have. You have to analize your opp for a couple of hands. It hepls. For example, if flop is K84 and your opp is tight and he is raising he might have two pairs or set. If your opp is playing with every hand (even with rubbish) and he is raising - he might have a pair with top kicker.
That's how I play and it helps me to guess what opp has.
 
DonV73

DonV73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 12, 2012
Total posts
672
Chips
0
I've been playing poker now for about 4 years and i've never felt the need to learn or understand poker math. Sure i know the basics such as pot odds, but what are my odds to win with KQ on KQ8 if my opponent is holding AK? QQ? JT? i honestly don't know. I know how to figure it out. But my question is, is this kind of math important for every hand? And should it come natural to be able to figure out my equity in any given hand? How much does it actually help...

Personally I think it is more important for cash games (where you just need to make you you win more than 50% of the time, all the time) than for MTT's.

But why don't you use a tool like PokerStove?
 
loafes

loafes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Total posts
1,049
Chips
0
For Tournaments it's worth learning pre flop equity so you can make much better descions
 
K

kmichaels

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Total posts
156
Chips
0
Personally, i think that math and stats are very valuable and hugely useful only but only if you know how to apply them, otherwise it will jeopardize all your money. If a software tells you that if a player makes 75% of the time a pot size bet in the river it doesn´t mean you will call him. Your poker instinct which is the truly tool to use might tell you to fold and you always should follow that.
 
ccocco

ccocco

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Total posts
460
Chips
0
if you look at the poker tables are pages you can help but to play certain hands of cards, depends on several factors, including the size of your stack, the pot size, your position at the table as the other players act before and after the flop, but hey that does not guarantee anything, who not lost with AAA set against full or ladder ... so is poker.
 
psychotie

psychotie

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Total posts
324
Chips
0
To know ur poker math makes it easier to come to a decision wether to act , but its only a help and not a garantee to win a hand. Poker isn t all about skill, which includes the math knowledge, its also the factor luck . And this u can t control.
gl on the felts
 
spiderman637

spiderman637

RIP Buck
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Total posts
1,835
Chips
0
For me Equity comes into play at crucial stages og the game more importantly the final stages...As the game levels increase i start giving equity the same trend of importance, but all said over all its just one of the factors of many to consider when u are facing your opponent. Final verdict is, its important to these things...
 
C

cpgd176

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 31, 2010
Total posts
98
Chips
0
Thanks for replies, I will get pokerstove and start crunching some numbers.
My main reason for asking this is, watching Vanessa Rousso playing, she knew almost exact percentages of each hand to win (Heads up) on pretty much every street. Which I thought was crazy.

But without knowing your opponents hands, it seems it would be difficult to calculate your equity in the hand vs opponents range, especially when trying to this on the fly while playing multiple tournaments. I guess just practice and eventually you have a pretty decent idea.
 
C

cotta777

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Total posts
868
Chips
0
I personally dont think its massively important its not going to make a very good player a losing player,

Its more about weighing up pros and cons and risk factors - *

for example, ''this guy is short stacked just past the bubble with 7/8BB he's likely shoving any ace, any pair possibly king high from middle to late position so i can call looser.

Or - ''this guy is extremely tight and I haven't seen him re-raise the turn all night - or play aggressive OOP - so Im only going to showdown with close to the ab/nuts

which effectively is making you make a mathamatical decision on playable hand range
 
Carl Trooper

Carl Trooper

Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Total posts
3,381
Awards
6
Chips
0
It is def useful as others have mentioned.

The rule of 4 and 2 is easy and simple way to figure percentages.

You don't have to be a brainiac to have success, but you also shouldn't be making terrible calls just because you have a flush draw when its 2-1 on your money.
 
T

turtelliusshellius

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Total posts
87
Chips
0
I personally feel that poker math is extremely important to a grinder and relatively unimportant to a loose cannon. The reason I feel this way is because for a grinder to be successful he must be able to range another hand, calculate the EV of his own hand against that range, and play accordingly. This way he can have winnings that always exceed his losses. Grinders take their winnings a little at a time and consistently. Loose cannons are a whole different story. If a player is willing to play any two cards and attempt to outplay you then the math really makes no difference. Loose cannons need reading ability. They need to know your range by how you play hands and then be able to take advantage of those situations to create the situation they want (getting you to call with the worst of it and fold with the best of it basically). So it all depends on your personal style and strengths. If you are a winning player and have yet to learn the math then that tells me that you aren't a grinder. If you are a losing player then maybe you should learn some of the math and see how it affects your play. If you don't know whether you are a losing player or winning player, you are probably a losing player, and you need to learn the math and how to use a stats site. I hope this helps.
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
I feel like for low stakes the Math isn't nearly as important as timed aggression, positioning, and paying attention to opponents. Most of the time the cards don't even matter.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
I personally feel that poker math is extremely important to a grinder and relatively unimportant to a loose cannon. The reason I feel this way is because for a grinder to be successful he must be able to range another hand, calculate the EV of his own hand against that range, and play accordingly. This way he can have winnings that always exceed his losses. Grinders take their winnings a little at a time and consistently. Loose cannons are a whole different story. If a player is willing to play any two cards and attempt to outplay you then the math really makes no difference. Loose cannons need reading ability. They need to know your range by how you play hands and then be able to take advantage of those situations to create the situation they want (getting you to call with the worst of it and fold with the best of it basically). So it all depends on your personal style and strengths. If you are a winning player and have yet to learn the math then that tells me that you aren't a grinder. If you are a losing player then maybe you should learn some of the math and see how it affects your play. If you don't know whether you are a losing player or winning player, you are probably a losing player, and you need to learn the math and how to use a stats site. I hope this helps.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Excellent perspective above!
:icon_thum

I think that having a good grasp on the math is crucial to being a winning player. You don't need to know it down to the exact % but you need to have a pretty good idea.

Grinders need math, "loose cannons" need reading ability and top players have both and constantly look for ways to improve both.

What makes Poker a better game than blackjack or craps or roulette? Well, essentially the fact that you get to choose WHEN to put your money in. You don't have to put your money in first and then wait to see what happens....you get part of the story, decide whether or not to continue and for how much. Skilled players will only put their money in when it is profitable to do so, that is why it is possible to consistently win at poker. To fully utilize this profitable feature at a poker table, you have to know how to calculate these things to know whether a certain action is a "good bet" or not.

The best way to learn the math, IMO is later, away from the table to analyze the hands you've played. Next time you bust out, or are waiting for a game to start plug in a few hands and see what each player's equity was at the time the money went in.

I don't think very many poker players are calculating their actual equity during the middle of a hand....but once they've analyzed a similar situation enough times they can quickly process that "ballpark" information in the back of their mind while simultaneously making other decisions and using other available info.

Example: I'm facing an all in holding 88 in my BB. I figure half the time he's got 2 overs and the other half of the time I'm facing an overpair. so what's my equity? ...at the table I'm thinking "my equity is roughly a third or 33% vs this player's range"

but how do I know that? Because countless times I've gone home and calculated something that looks like this:

50% of the time he has 2 overs and I'm 50% to win so that = 25% equity (50 x 0.5)
50% of the time he has an overpair and I'm 20% to win so that = 10% equity (50 x 0.20)
so my total equity in calling here is 35% (25% + 10%)

Since the pot is only laying me 1.5:1 this is not a profitable spot to call.

Eventually after analyzing enough hands and situations you'll have a good idea of ranges and how certain hands matchup in certain ranges. It is very useful info.

other important ways to use math:
figuring out the proper bet size to give bad odds to your opponent's drawing hands
deciding whether or not you have odds to chase your draw
figuring what the average stack will be when the bubble bursts
figuring what the average stack will be at the final table (then you know "I need to double up 2 more times before the final table" and help make your decisions easier.)

Knowing that roughly 2/3 of the time in a heads up pot, your opponent misses the flop...so if they bet the flop 70% of the time they are C-betting A LOT

I think math becomes even more important whenever you play short handed.

It goes on and on....
 
Last edited:
B

barclayaz

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Total posts
3
Chips
0
Good information here for a new player. A lot of references to Pokerstove, which I have heard of but not looked into yet. Is this a good place to learn the concepts and how to apply them, or mostly to crunch the numbers? Any suggestions for the best sources for learning the basics of poker math and how to best apply the concepts? Also - if I like to play live more often than on-line, and won't have a computer or data or spreadsheets available, what are the most important concepts to memorize and use at a live table?
 
H

houtlijm

Enthusiast
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Total posts
74
Chips
0
i only use more sophisticated mathematics when i really don't know what to do. whenever else i just use basic odds and do what my feelings says me to do
 
Loonbat

Loonbat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Total posts
386
Chips
0
My undergrad degree is in mathematics and while a good player knows the math behind the poker, the mathematical concepts are fairly easy to learn and apply: pot odds, % to complete drawing hands (or improve hands), equity based on proper ranging, etc. I find the psychology of poker to be far more useful than the math of poker, though. When you can figure out the "why" of your opponents' decision-making, the math becomes next to useless.
 
L

luismacedo20

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Total posts
3
Chips
0
There are applications that can calculate the "odds" and the "outs" as well as the information from the other players at the table?
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
There are applications that can calculate the "odds" and the "outs" as well as the information from the other players at the table?

not exactly. there are Apps for your phone/tablet/computer etc that are really good equity calculators, counting outs is not hard.... but yes the App is doing that in the background. As far as "information from other players at the table" no...not really that I am aware of. That is all the poker psychology part, "play the player" and there isn't really any app to help with that.

basically you can put in your hand and 1 or more hands from your opponent and calculate your odds of winning.

Some of the better apps will also let you pick a "range" for your opponent instead of a specific hand...I use this function A LOT. Assign them a range, see how my hand matches up against it...
 
Top