How do you play a good pocket pair EP after the bubble ?

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Cokatoo56

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Hi,

In a recent tournament, I had pocket tens UTG and I was wondering how you would play that. We are deep in the tournament, we have just passed the bubble. I have around 40xBB, I am the biggest stack on the table I am playing at, but there are a few players with 30xBB +.
The fact that we are deep in the tournament and that I am UTG makes me think that people will often shove with a looser hand range.
If I open raise and get re-raised, I'll probably have to shove.

What are your views on that ?
 
Beanfacekilla

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Hi,

In a recent tournament, I had pocket tens UTG and I was wondering how you would play that. We are deep in the tournament, we have just passed the bubble. I have around 40xBB, I am the biggest stack on the table I am playing at, but there are a few players with 30xBB +.
The fact that we are deep in the tournament and that I am UTG makes me think that people will often shove with a looser hand range.
If I open raise and get re-raised, I'll probably have to shove.

What are your views on that ?


You should be considering many different dynamics when playing this hand.


Villain tendencies, stack sizes, and action to name some.


Let's say for example you open for 3x. It gets 3-bet by a whacky villain.

Now it gets 4-bet all in by a much tighter opponent..... this opponent has 30 BBs, about 75% of your stack.

How does your 10-10 feel now?


There really isn't cookie cutter advice for poker. It just depends.



Obviously you open the pot UTG with 10-10. How you proceed after that regarding reraises and all that depends on game dynamics.

And post flop, if you go to the flop 3-way and it is A-K-x and you are OOP to the two other villains, now how do you feel about 10-10 here?



Just some food for thought.
 
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Cokatoo56

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Thanks for your answer !

I fully agree with all you said. Well, yeah, I know, as always in poker, the answer is : "it depends" lol

unfortunately, I don't have HEM yet (i'm a few points from having it for free :) ), so I can't really tell about the tendencies at the table.

So it's difficult to give a clear trend. There is this romanian guy who seem to play well and tight, but whom I caught calling a shove preflop 20xBB after limping MP with Q9s :-\
I saw guys shoving EP or MP with small pocket pairs as well. (well, probably the kind of play you can expect at that stage of the tournament)
 
Arjonius

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Hi,

In a recent tournament, I had pocket tens UTG and I was wondering how you would play that. We are deep in the tournament, we have just passed the bubble. I have around 40xBB, I am the biggest stack on the table I am playing at, but there are a few players with 30xBB +.
The fact that we are deep in the tournament and that I am UTG makes me think that people will often shove with a looser hand range.
If I open raise and get re-raised, I'll probably have to shove.

What are your views on that ?
Open and see what happens. It can vary from one tournament to the next, but you might be fine making it 2.5x or even a bit less. If someone 3bets, it's likely to be to somewhere around 6-7x, so I'd like to know why you think you'd have to shove your remaining 37.5x.

Also, why do you think people will shove looser because you opened UTG? I tend to think the opposite. If you open from a later seat, your range is wider, so I can 3bet shove wider.
 
steveiam

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You should be considering many different dynamics when playing this hand.


Villain tendencies, stack sizes, and action to name some.


Let's say for example you open for 3x. It gets 3-bet by a whacky villain.

Now it gets 4-bet all in by a much tighter opponent..... this opponent has 30 BBs, about 75% of your stack.

How does your 10-10 feel now?


There really isn't cookie cutter advice for poker. It just depends.



Obviously you open the pot UTG with 10-10. How you proceed after that regarding reraises and all that depends on game dynamics.

And post flop, if you go to the flop 3-way and it is A-K-x and you are OOP to the two other villains, now how do you feel about 10-10 here?



Just some food for thought.

+1
 
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I think raises TT utg is a borderline play. It depends on your image, the effective stack on the table and the players in front of you aggresion level. There is a lot of good that can happen and also bad. If you happen to get 3bet you are always oop and you probably can't call there which will ruin your image making you look weak. If there is one call you might be looking at the sb and bb coming in and you are multiway which TT dont play well. At best you decide to play this hand you might wanna come in for a slightly bigger raise with 3.5x and get a steal utg or get heads up with one of the blinds which is the best scenario. Great hand to mix it up but I wouldn't get too crazy about it. Most times in that situation I would fold.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I will nearly always raise my standard raise with TT UTG in almost every single situation I can dream up.

If you're folding it you're the world's biggest nit, if you limp with it you're just asking for trouble playing a strong yet vulnerable hand out of position in a multi way pot. If you raise different than your standard raise then you are giving away betting tell information based on your hand strength.

now....whether to call a 3 bet, or how to proceed on a crappy flop is a whole different can of worms!
 
Beanfacekilla

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I will nearly always raise my standard raise with TT UTG in almost every single situation I can dream up.

If you're folding it you're the world's biggest nit, if you limp with it you're just asking for trouble playing a strong yet vulnerable hand out of position in a multi way pot. If you raise different than your standard raise then you are giving away betting tell information based on your hand strength.

now....whether to call a 3 bet, or how to proceed on a crappy flop is a whole different can of worms!


Oh for sure.

I have seen you around the forums, and you really seem to know your stuff. You give good advice.


I was just trying to illustrate how "it depends" with my post earlier. I wasn't sure if you knew this. I was thinking maybe it seemed like I was saying something else.

I would raise in OPs spot also (of course).
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Oh for sure.

I have seen you around the forums, and you really seem to know your stuff. You give good advice.


I was just trying to illustrate how "it depends" with my post earlier. I wasn't sure if you knew this. I was thinking maybe it seemed like I was saying something else.

I would raise in OPs spot also (of course).

I got your post. :)

in a different post somebody else said raising with TT UTG was "borderline" implying that there might be a better option.

to me it is one of the slam dunk easiest decisions I'll make all day, pick up TT UTG....standard raise...
 
Beanfacekilla

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I got your post. :)

in a different post somebody else said raising with TT UTG was "borderline" implying that there might be a better option.

to me it is one of the slam dunk easiest decisions I'll make all day, pick up TT UTG....standard raise...


Oh holy cow I didn't even see that one.


Yeah only the worlds biggest nit would fold 10-10 UTG.


Clear spot for a raise. Even if you get tons of callers, it just becomes kind of like a setmine situation to me then. Like I am not going to c-bet on boards with overcards in multi way pots.
 
Juanes1913

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I would play TT in UTG after the bubble making a open/fold move, can be 2 big blinds. But if any villain in a better position, with a healthy stack shove you must fold pocket tens because we don't to want to face a premium hand.
So be careful with pocket tens with the other fullstacks of the table because we can get eliminated.
But you can also do a lot of damage with that hand mainly to the shortstacks of the table.
So my advice is look who you're going to face based on the notes you have of the villain.
GL
 
okeedokalee

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Open min raise pre-flop Cbet the flop just under half pot.Then I would assess the board, player styles effective stacks stack to pot ratio pot odds, betting patterns.
Try to take control of the hand and if the board and turn action is threatening, attempt to control the pot and if in doubt fold to aggression, especially if your opponent is straight forward.
 
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I know folding TT preflop sounds nitty but with 40bb in a full ring your not getting many folds. In todays aggro style you most likely not going to get through without a fight. Min raising is going to bring at least 4-5 people if 40bb stack sizes are average as stated. 2/3 of the time the flop is going to have a card higher then T. You are going to be betting oop all the time. Personally i am aggressive on the button, so you are getting 3bet by me with any suited cards over 8. My button 3 bet range is going to beat TT most of the time on the flop. A more aggressive player is gonna 3bet with offsuit hands. Your only defense is a push, and your only holding TT utg. Personally in this situation specifically, not knowing anything about any other player on the table and if I had to make a standard play its a fold. Not trying to sound like a jerk someone would need to give better details on why I should always raise in that spot.
 
Arjonius

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you are getting 3bet by me with any suited cards over 8. My button 3 bet range is going to beat TT most of the time on the flop.
What 3bet range that includes suited cards over 8 is going to beat TT on the flop most of the time?

And so what if you raise 20-25% of hands from the button? How does that even begin to justify not open-raising TT in EP?

Or do you prefer open-limping? And if so, what's your reasoning?

And similar to what I asked before, why is shoving the only defense with 40 BB?

Plus, if players are 3-betting even wider than you, how much of a the problem is shoving against them with TT?
 
Venom246

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I would minraise and see what the table does, maybe shove if i get a 3bet from someone. It really depends on the table and ofc on the prizes in the tournament+the structure.
 
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And I thought I was the worlds biggest nit but I don't fold TT OOP. I have only folded TT after my raise was re-raised by a very tight player and good job I did they had AA :D

Why would you need to shove OP as you have said you had 40bb. I only shove when I am short stacked and have 15bb or lower
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I play TT pretty profitably I think, and this is how I play it from early pos: (almost the same strategy is true for 99 and JJ)

always open with my standard raise (usually 2.5x but varies by table, blinds etc.)

if I get a bunch of callers, I basically am done with the hand unless I flop a set

if I get reraised by a good, tight player, I usually muck it unless they are in the blinds and I'll have position

if I get reraised by an active player, I flat call with it and reassess on the flop

if I get reraised by a LAG I 4 bet, if he 5 bets I fold. (I have a tight Image so if LAG 5 bets me he has QQ+ or he just bluffed me really well and deserves the pot)
 
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Hi,

In a recent tournament, I had pocket tens UTG and I was wondering how you would play that. We are deep in the tournament, we have just passed the bubble. I have around 40xBB, I am the biggest stack on the table I am playing at, but there are a few players with 30xBB +.
The fact that we are deep in the tournament and that I am UTG makes me think that people will often shove with a looser hand range.
If I open raise and get re-raised, I'll probably have to shove.

What are your views on that ?

Cokatoo56. In my opinion in this particular situation not knowing anything about any player all dynamics and range aside I can't calculate a proper way to play that hand utg. I would personally fold. If I am the largest stack at the table I want to save my chips in position or in the blinds. I do not want to be in a difficult spot on the flop by a stck size that can ruin my run to a final table. There are very few flops in a multiway pot you will like. If a flop under ten hits in a multiway situation you will almost always be looking at a drawing board. If any other flop hits multiway and a picture card comes up you will not feel good about the flop and will be checking more than 50% of the time. So why even put yourself there and lose your stack size on a play that is marginal. You will have better spots along the way. And you have a stack that can withstand a drought for at least another level or 2. Why sacrifice that for a medium strength hand oop. Also, consider if you are going to be the BB and SB in the upcoming hands. In poker there is no absolute play. But in this one I feel comfortable letting that hand go. If you check on YouTube you will see a Phil Ivey fold a flush with 88 utg. Its a funny hand but watch his action when he sees the flop. Maybe you will understand why I would fold.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Sometimes there is an awful lot of terrible advice in these threads.
 
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it depends. if a short stack villian shoves, you will most likely go to a flip, and sometimes you will be shoved with lower pp, cause when people are too short, a pp is almost a guaranty of going to a flip, or stealing blinds. If the ante's are up, I would open 2x and then analize if a I get reraised, depending on how the villian plays and his stack
 
Arjonius

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Cokatoo56. In my opinion in this particular situation not knowing anything about any player all dynamics and range aside I can't calculate a proper way to play that hand utg. I would personally fold. If I am the largest stack at the table I want to save my chips in position or in the blinds. I do not want to be in a difficult spot on the flop by a stck size that can ruin my run to a final table. There are very few flops in a multiway pot you will like. If a flop under ten hits in a multiway situation you will almost always be looking at a drawing board. If any other flop hits multiway and a picture card comes up you will not feel good about the flop and will be checking more than 50% of the time. So why even put yourself there and lose your stack size on a play that is marginal. You will have better spots along the way. And you have a stack that can withstand a drought for at least another level or 2. Why sacrifice that for a medium strength hand oop. Also, consider if you are going to be the BB and SB in the upcoming hands. In poker there is no absolute play. But in this one I feel comfortable letting that hand go. If you check on YouTube you will see a Phil Ivey fold a flush with 88 utg. Its a funny hand but watch his action when he sees the flop. Maybe you will understand why I would fold.
It's far, far too nitty to be folding TT with a fully playable stack just because you're in EP and bad things could happen. Are you also folding JJ? QQ? KK because someone might call with Ax and flop top pair?

What about all the good things that can happen, starting with the simplest and possibly the single most likely scenario, where everyone folds?

And what's the connection between whether to open TT in this situation and Phil Ivey folding a flush with 88 on a later street? The chance he would fold the TT is zero.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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It's far, far too nitty to be folding TT with a fully playable stack just because you're in EP and bad things could happen. Are you also folding JJ? QQ? KK because someone might call with Ax and flop top pair?

What about all the good things that can happen, starting with the simplest and possibly the single most likely scenario, where everyone folds?

And what's the connection between whether to open TT in this situation and Phil Ivey folding a flush with 88 on a later street? The chance he would fold the TT is zero.

Agreed

I've played a lot of poker, I can't even count how many times I've opened with 99,TT, JJ UTG only to be called by several players. I sigh on the inside and prepare to check fold the flop when BINGO! I flop middle set! Well....hello....show me the money!

I also can't even guess how many times I've raised these hands UTG and get just 1 caller from late position or the blinds. Flop comes with 1 overcard and I take it down with a Cbet
 
Dee Dee

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If you get 3 bet you can either 4 bet fold to 5 bet/ shove over a 5 bet, depends on the player you are up against, the other options would be fold to the 3 bet or just flat it. I think it is compulsory to open this hand from any position and I would only fold it pre if there was a raise and a re-raise behind me; I'd be fine getting my chips in against one opp, against two opps it becomes a very tricky hand indeed. Against some players it is an insta-call scenario against others it is an insta-fold, only your own judgement can tell you which it is in any given situation. So, same old story, situation dependent.
 
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