How do you play a 10-15BB stack in a MTT?

rifflemao

rifflemao

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In before someone says "don't let your stack drop below 15BB". :D

But seriously, I make a ton of mistakes between 10-15BB with antes in play, usually by over-playing (shoving with a coin-flip hand at best etc). I haven't figured out if it's best to think "Woohoo, I still have 15BB" or "Uh oh, my 'M' is 9".

This article on CC says that it's correct to be in push\fold mode with up to 15BB when antes are in play, but what do you think?

Do you ever just call a minraise with 10-15BB behind? Does the optimist in you want to see flops, or do you limit your moves to shove or fold at 15BB like you would at <10BB?
 
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SwiftHax

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We all probably know the answer - it depends.

If I'm in the BB with 15BB, holding live cards and the small blind min-raises, why wouldn't I call?

Even with such shallow stacks there's still some post-flop play to be had. Also, if it's some turbo tourney where the average is 15-20BBs then you can call more often because your opponents will try to get their stacks in the middle with strong hands no matter what the flop is, so you can take advantage and call their raises with some hands that can flop well and outplay them IP.

You have to win coinflips though. It's what motivates deep stacks to call you in hopes of busting you.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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The structure and average stack matter quite a bit here, actually.

If we have 15bb but it is a turbo situation and the average stack has 10-12bb then we can fee cautiously optimistic (but not complacent!). We'll need to occasionally min raise to take down our fair share of blinds and antes and then call some desperate shoves from our blinds with hands like 66+, AJ+

If it is a deepstacked situation and we've had an unfortunate day making us a micro stack amongst 100+bb stacks then we need to look for any reasonable spot to double up with some dead money. We're on a wing and a prayer already so can't be afraid to gamble. 3bet shove with suited connectors? why not?!

But usually, we'll be somewhere in between with a semi-OK structure and with roughly 15bb and average stack is something like 25bbs. This is a tough situation indeed and I hate it; but I've begun to learn to navigate it a little better.

I'll spare you the typical advice "it depends. who's at your table, where are the big stacks and short stacks relative to you. how is your image...." these considerations are obvious and important. But in GENERAL my main concern is maintaining my fold equity at all costs. Having at least some fold equity on my side is of paramount importance. One of my favorite moves at this stack size is the re-steal. To execute this move, I must have a stack that can make a standard raise fold. 15bb is right about that stack size. At the very minimum I need a stack size that can make 1 limper fold. 8-10bb is right around that stack size.

So...in considering any move I might make....I figure what my remaining stack size will be if that move fails. If failure of that move leaves me with "comfortable fold equity" then that move MAY be an acceptable risk. If failure of that move causes me to dip below a comfortable stack size, then I will either push all in, or fold.

or...a shorter way of saying the same thing: never put any chips into the pot before carefully considering the effect on your future fold equity.
 
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rifflemao

rifflemao

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Thanks for the great responses. I'm trying to get my head on straight before Vegas in a few weeks, and that really helps. Hopefully\ideally I won't get down into 10-15BB, but the info gives me some food for thought. I hadn't considered the importance of maintaining fold equity.

I should probably be doing the math on the shoves that I call "mistakes" too. Sometimes they seem like mistakes because I regret the result of busting out, but some ranging and equity calc might show that some are decent plays.

It's good to know that there is some occasional\situational wiggle room with 10-15BB.
 
teepack

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In before someone says "don't let your stack drop below 15BB". :D

But seriously, I make a ton of mistakes between 10-15BB with antes in play, usually by over-playing (shoving with a coin-flip hand at best etc). I haven't figured out if it's best to think "Woohoo, I still have 15BB" or "Uh oh, my 'M' is 9".

This article on CC says that it's correct to be in push\fold mode with up to 15BB when antes are in play, but what do you think?

Do you ever just call a minraise with 10-15BB behind? Does the optimist in you want to see flops, or do you limit your moves to shove or fold at 15BB like you would at <10BB?

I assume you are talking about a scenario where you have 15BB in the latter stages of the tourney, perhaps close to the bubble (say the BB is 1000 and the average stack is 35,000 and you have 15,000). In that scenario, you have to really pay attention to positioning and your willingness to go all-in. If you get decent cards in an early position and you're not willing to go all-in, then fold before you waste your chips. You can't throw away chips pre-flop by raising and then folding to a re-raise. Your goal should be to get good cards and try to isolate yourself into a hand with only one other player. Get a double up and get back to the chip average and then go back to playing your normal game. 15BB is also enough chips that you can make somebody think twice before they call your shove. If you are down to 5BB or less then people won't even think twice about calling you and it will make you even more susceptible.
 
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To go off more from what teepack said, You cannot afford to be losing any more chips. You have to be willing to put it all in if any at this point due to fold equity(willing, but not always, ie the sb minraise example). You can usually pick up 3-4bb doing this if done at the right times. What are the right times you ask? I try to shove early with the top 10%. As it gets closer to the button, my range becomes much wider to the point of 56s+. Keep in mind these are mostly spots where every has tightened up and if I do get called, I'm wanting QQ+, AK or AKs. Else I'm looking for 78s-10js on account of A10-AQ is most likely dominated. However, That doesn't mean I won't put them in. Depending on the skill level of the players, I've seen people play hard all the way to the bubble to make an A7os hero call facing a dominating hand.

TL;DR Be willing to get it in, you will lose, so be it, just make sure you pick the right spot to make your go.
 
A2345Razz

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Look for good spots to shove....

I mean I am currently playing, took a beat and got to 14 BB.....

There was a limper and I shoved 99 from the Hijack....

EZ shove.
 
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crow27

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A friend and I were talking about this exact situation a couple of days ago. My stance was with 15 BB, push with anything (late pos) no matter what. His take was at 15 BB, min raise (mid-late pos) At that point (late stage trny), most players play way too tight and either let you have the blinds or overplay their hand and is easy to get away for cheap. He thinks 8-10 BBs is the best stack to push. What I remember of the conversation, his reasons were at 15 BB, you're basically ONLY getting called by either hands that crush you or big stacks that can take a shot with their 30-40% equity and not have it affect them if they lose. With 8-10 BBs, you're going to get called down A LOT lighter, which makes up for not having any fold equity. (Does this make sense?) I haven't had a chance to test this in a trny yet, but from my last couple of trnies, I think he might be right.
 
suby_rafael

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I would suggest open shoving with any pair at any position, strong aces in early position, weak aces in late position.

Also if everyone folds around to you on the button or small blind then shove any two cards. If you get your stack above 20 bb then start playing how you would normally.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Shoving in coin flip situations with 15bb isn't bad play, it's fine.

I mean, if you know someone has AK or you have AK and know they have 88 for example you should be willing to take a flip, even with more BB's like that. Our objective is chip accumulation, you NEED to flip numerous times to win tournaments.

Never, or very rarely just flat call with such a shallow stack. You have a stack size where it's not really going to ever be profitable unless you have a big hand and players don't see through it. Always fold or 3B shove, you would be surprised how much fold equity you still have on these stack sizes and you can increase your stack size so much vs loose openers or open shoving.
 
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The structure and average stack matter quite a bit here, actually.

If we have 15bb but it is a turbo situation and the average stack has 10-12bb then we can fee cautiously optimistic (but not complacent!). We'll need to occasionally min raise to take down our fair share of blinds and antes and then call some desperate shoves from our blinds with hands like 66+, AJ+

If it is a deepstacked situation and we've had an unfortunate day making us a micro stack amongst 100+bb stacks then we need to look for any reasonable spot to double up with some dead money. We're on a wing and a prayer already so can't be afraid to gamble. 3bet shove with suited connectors? why not?!

But usually, we'll be somewhere in between with a semi-OK structure and with roughly 15bb and average stack is something like 25bbs. This is a tough situation indeed and I hate it; but I've begun to learn to navigate it a little better.

I'll spare you the typical advice "it depends. who's at your table, where are the big stacks and short stacks relative to you. how is your image...." these considerations are obvious and important. But in GENERAL my main concern is maintaining my fold equity at all costs. Having at least some fold equity on my side is of paramount importance. One of my favorite moves at this stack size is the re-steal. To execute this move, I must have a stack that can make a standard raise fold. 15bb is right about that stack size. At the very minimum I need a stack size that can make 1 limper fold. 8-10bb is right around that stack size.

So...in considering any move I might make....I figure what my remaining stack size will be if that move fails. If failure of that move leaves me with "comfortable fold equity" then that move MAY be an acceptable risk. If failure of that move causes me to dip below a comfortable stack size, then I will either push all in, or fold.

or...a shorter way of saying the same thing: never put any chips into the pot before carefully considering the effect on your future fold equity.

I disagree with this , effective stack sizes shouldnt matter at all unless you are at the final table and you have to be concerned about icm.

Just make +ev moves , dont make -ev shoves just because you want to catchup.

There are charts online who tells you what is profitable to shove at 10-15bb , i personally start to shove around 12bb , i miniraise before that unless i have a really strong hand and i dont want to see a flop with it.

A good play with 15bb is to limp with unpaired highcards like AQ or AK and shove against a raise because you dont want to see a flop with them and forced to fold when you miss.

Holdemresources.net and icmizer both have the charts you are looking for.

-Ev moves are worth doing IF you already have a good stack and you want to accumulate a gigantic stack because it will allow you to bully your table easier.
 
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hffjd2000

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Scenario above with 15bb (with or without antes), I would limit my play to either shove or fold.

You mention shoving at coinflip. Its not a mistake since actually before it, your percentage is higher than 50% because of the fold equity.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I disagree with this , effective stack sizes shouldnt matter at all unless you are at the final table and you have to be concerned about icm.

Just make +ev moves , dont make -ev shoves just because you want to catchup.

There are charts online who tells you what is profitable to shove at 10-15bb , i personally start to shove around 12bb , i miniraise before that unless i have a really strong hand and i dont want to see a flop with it.

A good play with 15bb is to limp with unpaired highcards like AQ or AK and shove against a raise because you dont want to see a flop with them and forced to fold when you miss.

Holdemresources.net and icmizer both have the charts you are looking for.

-Ev moves are worth doing IF you already have a good stack and you want to accumulate a gigantic stack because it will allow you to bully your table easier.

effective stack sizes nearly always matter, IMO. :)

Blindly folding, shoving, or limp/shoving your entire playable range just because you are below an arbitrary line in the sand of "15bb" is a very simplistic strategy.

Now, I'm not saying it's wrong to adopt a push/fold strategy at a certain stack size. And if you don't possess any more complex tactics in your arsenal, then it is a perfectly fine strategy as it is hard for your opponents to defend against.

But there are more complex, lower variance ways that a good player can play a 15bb stack WHEN it is roughly the average stack.

For instance, I play in a weekly $80 live crapshoot tourney. It usually gets about 12 tables and usually top 18 are paid. Once we get to 3 tables the average stack is about 12-15bb because the structure sucks.

By the time we get to 3 tables I usually have a lot of skill equity vs. the field and I usually have an average stack. I'm not going to give them the privilege of flipping against me since there are much easier ways for me to get chips. Contrary to popular belief, there is still some play left at a 15bb average stack.

Here are the moves I will consider using at a 15bb average stack depending on table factors:
1)min raise, fold to a 3bet.
2)min raise, jam on a 3bet
3)min raise, call a jam
4)limp AK early pos and call any jam, fold if I miss the flop and they bet into me (rare table dynamics needed here)
5)re-steal all in vs. a light opener (usually with at least a speculative hand like 57s at the worst)
6)open jam marginal hands like KQ, 77 vs. "sticky" blind defenders
7)defend blinds vs. a min raise, then jam any flop that misses their perceived range (stop n go)
8)defend blinds vs. a min raise, then check raise all in when I hit a piece of the flop and I think they didn't
9)flat a min raise in position with a monster hoping to induce a squeeze shove.
10)min raise pre with 2 big cards. Jam on almost any flop (double barrel shove)

So, just right there with what I can think of off the top of my head there are 10 moves beyond just fold/shove. Now, admittedly there is not much play left after a flop bet.

at least, that's my $0.02

:)
 
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BearPlay

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Don't let yourself get down to ~15BB.


OK, I'm prepared for a beating :biggrin: :icon_sunn


~~

On a serious note, Sir Riffle, you're a top-notch player and you have the skillz to do this. You're always ripping the table apart when I see you. Trust your instincts, good sir, wishing you the best ;)

~~

I could PM you the Jennifear push/fold charts; the only problem with those, in my experience, that they don't work so well when you're playing against folks who don't comprehend shoving ranges... and TBH, I'm not certain of their viability in live poker.
 
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Yes, a lot of players would say that that you are definitely in push or fold situation with 10-15 BBs or less, but for me it kinda depends of a blind structure. So if we talk about turbos/hyper turbos than that must be a push or fold play for you but if we talk about slow tournaments try to use skill for a little bit longer ;)
 
es530

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15 BB I do a mini increase in position, then, all-in or fold.
 
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Necks03

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10-15bb. In position. Im shoving pretty wide. If im in the blinds and I face a raise, I will likely stop and go alot.
 
goaldriversv

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with <15bbs, i will very rarely just call a min raise. at this point, you should be shoving especially with antes in play. i will either shove or fold. if i'm near the money, then i'm folding unless i have a super premium hand.
 
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with <15bbs, i will very rarely just call a min raise. at this point, you should be shoving especially with antes in play. i will either shove or fold. if i'm near the money, then i'm folding unless i have a super premium hand.

That's probably the biggest deal, actually. With 15BB and antes, it's normally time to start shoving. Without antes, you can wait a little longer, but in any situation if you're almost ITM you might as well fold Aces. You're better off waiting to get paid than being called by someone gambling with a much bigger stack and going out.
 
JPoling

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In before someone says "don't let your stack drop below 15BB". :D

But seriously, I make a ton of mistakes between 10-15BB with antes in play, usually by over-playing (shoving with a coin-flip hand at best etc). I haven't figured out if it's best to think "Woohoo, I still have 15BB" or "Uh oh, my 'M' is 9".

This article on CC says that it's correct to be in push\fold mode with up to 15BB when antes are in play, but what do you think?

Do you ever just call a minraise with 10-15BB behind? Does the optimist in you want to see flops, or do you limit your moves to shove or fold at 15BB like you would at <10BB?
Never will I call a raise and not shove with 10-15BBs. First of all, what hands am I even gonna call a raise with? Ax or PP? Yea I might as well shove with them. Basically, just respect position and shove when you can. In a MTT we have to come to spots like this and this is where it will make or break our tourney a lot of times. But as long as you respect position. Try to push with Ax or high PP. You will usually do good. Like I said though RESPECT position. I will fold a lot of hands that I will literally be thinking in my hand, "Man, I am totally shoving with this best I got in a minute....Oh, Fudge that they raised, fold." Now, some beginners don't understand this. If I was just willing to shove with it why all of a sudden am I backing down now just cause someone raise? POSITION. Best advice I can give. Regardless, at 10-15BB you are really gonna need some luck on your side. Also, short stack though you can also shove with marginal hands when in position and pick up blinds and limpers to help your stack a lot of times when picking the right spots to do so. I actually play really well at short stack deep in MTT's which usually ends up making me bust or puts me in good spot by time I am at FT.
 
rifflemao

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Well, after starting this thread pre-wsop One Drop, I have to talk about my bustout hand and some advice I got from teammates. First though, thanks everyone for the discussion. I hope next time I'm in this spot I'll take more time to consider all the factors and options. Here was the structure, btw.

A factor that may be relevant: This is a YOLO tourney for me, since I wasn't planning to rebuy.

We are starting the 5th LVL at 100\200, no antes.
It folds around to me in the SB with KJo and I mindlessly insta-shove.
I have no reads on the villain (who has me covered) as he has just sat down. I just think KJo seems good enough with 11BB.

He calls and turns over ATo, which I have 40% against. We both miss the board, and I am out asking "Why? Why??" like Conan O'brien. :dontknow:

I had a good conversation with Diamond Dixie (Lisa) on the team, and later with Carl Trooper and Ryan Laplante.

Lisa's take is that you're never folding KJo there because it's too good of a hand, and shoving is not horrible but you only get called when you're beat (as someone mentioned further above). Plus you only pick up 1.5BB from the move when it works (due to pre-ante). She thinks shoving makes more sense when there are antes and more of a reward for the risk of going bust with no intent to rebuy, and prefers a limp-stab move so you can get away from it if raised and take a stab at a favorable flop.

Ryan's thought was that the play was basically fine\standard without reads on the player in the big blind.

Carl, who I consider a master of patience when short-stacked (won the ME package when down to 6BB at one point), said that he would probably fold in that spot rather than play a marginal hand out of position, because you have several more hands to see in position after folding.

I think because of the no ante and no rebuy factors, I prefer the limp-stab or fold approach. Unfortunately, I panicked, which was something I had hoped to avoid, hence the thread-start. :(
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Ok. I edited this because I misread the hand and I thought you were facing an opening raise.

#1 there is nothing wrong with pushing here. It is a higher variance line, but acceptable and with risk comes reward, right?

#2 I'm not a big fan of the limp line, I think. KJ is too strong for that right here. I might limp/trap with hands like AK/AQ here if I have a read on the bb, but I'm almost always gonna open for about 2.5bb here. Fold to a shove? Tough question...readless probably a crying fold...

#3 my preferred line in a spot like this, if I'm feeling pressure from my shorter stack is to raise preflop and then jam on almost any flop. A double barrel shove.
 
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rifflemao

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Ok. I edited this because I misread the hand and I thought you were facing an opening raise.

#1 there is nothing wrong with pushing here. It is a higher variance line, but acceptable and with risk comes reward, right?

#2 I'm not a big fan of the limp line, I think. KJ is too strong for that right here. I might limp/trap with hands like AK/AQ here if I have a read on the bb, but I'm almost always gonna open for about 2.5bb here. Fold to a shove? Tough question...readless probably a crying fold...

#3 my preferred line in a spot like this, if I'm feeling pressure from my shorter stack is to raise preflop and then jam on almost any flop. A double barrel shove.


Thanks Miss J.

I guess the reason I don't like #1 is I wasn't willing to rebuy (and I got a bad result, ha; otherwise it would have been a fantastic play! :D). Ryan mentioned that he was playing a bit higher variance on his first two bullets, and a little less on the 3rd when he went deep. That may not change how he would play that particular spot though, and he thought the shove was fine.

The limp\stab line probably doesn't work well against an aggressive player on your left, although it doesn't cost much when you have to fold...unless it's a habit.

I like #3, and it certainly would have worked if the villain only called with ATo in that spot. If he reraised, I probably would have folded and had several more hands to see.
 
Poker Orifice

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BvB shoving 11bb's with KJo is 100% TOTALLY Standard!

I'm never raise/folding in that spot unless BB is 'eberetta' & he snap jams on me & it is on the bubble ;)
 
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15BB with antes in play-I may still considered a call or min raise.
10bb with antes in play-It will be definitely a shove/fold mode for me.
 
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