How Do You Deal With Limpers?

S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
It’s funny because I hardly ever limp – I mean hardly ever, the only time I do is after 1 or 2 players limping before me and I’m in late position. Also in the first 1 to 2 levels of a deep stack tournament I will limp with practically everything just because raising doesn’t do much with 350BB stacks all around the table.

It’s really frustrating for me though, other players habitually limp into pots from all positions. I habitually raise from late positions with a very wide range and they habitually call and, oh guess what….that’s right, check. Now I’m certain that I’m +EV with my continuation bets, but every so often I get some A-hole that limp/check/calls all the way down, or I fold at some point in there and lose more chips than I really want to.

It’s a giant pain in the ass for me and it doesn’t change; ever. So I’ve tried to take an analytical approach to this problem and attempted to understand the psyche of a limper. I’ve come up with a couple of questions:

1. Is it ever profitable to limp into a pot? And let’s forget about the standard rookie/weak player limp/raising from UTG.
2. What are they attempting to accomplish?
3. Do I need to limp more often?

I know everyone that sits at the table has seen Rounder’s or some other Hollywood conception of poker; generally I can see them coming from a mile away as they limp/raise from UTG so I don’t think that’s what I’m really after here. In such a case they obviously have their reasons for doing it – and I have done it too, albeit, I do only in very explicit and rare situations.

I just don’t see how it’s profitable to play like that – they get no information on anyone else’s hand; which is fine because they’re not playing poker but are playing cards instead. That’s ok if that’s how they want to play, it’s their money and it just adds value to my stack, but why limp in the first place; surely they must figure out eventually that it is not profitable; right?

I generally only limp if I’m in the blinds and no one has raised or behind two+ limpers and I never really intend on winning the pot; I just do it to try to throw players off of what I’m actually trying to accomplish. But this approach in and of itself is an oxymoron since if all they’re thinking about is their cards they certainly do not notice my limp/raise numbers.

Yet every few games or so, as I keep raising the same limpers over and over again (some of which are regular players and players I would otherwise consider to be above average), they say “Man….you raise every time I limp!” I always respond by saying “There’s a pattern emerging here…” which usually gets me a glare. :)

Anyway, ultimately I’m just not real sure of myself when dealing with limpers and default to aggression to save my bacon. That usually works, especially as the blinds gets higher and higher, but at the same time I wonder; should I be limping more often? Limping more often would be akin to taking a kind of “if you can’t beat them, join them” approach; or, do I keep on raising?

It’s just obvious that the limping is never going to end – so I need to understand that approach to the game better if such an approach exists.
 
J

Justinawe12

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Total posts
308
Chips
0
The best times to limp are early on in an MTT, with hands like pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces in later positions. The reason for this is implied odds, since you are putting in a small amount in hopes of flopping something huge and winning a big pot. Later on in the tourney as the blinds are going up take advantage of limpers by raising your strong hands an extra BB for each limper. This will either discourage them from playing or have them play a hand where you are a big favorite to win preflop. This is the strategy I employ when it comes to limping and it works for the most part. If you are limping later on as the blinds are going up, you are almost asking someone to raise you and just take the chips. Hope this answers your question!
 
K

kanselau

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Total posts
439
Chips
0
It’s funny because I hardly ever limp – I mean hardly ever, the only time I do is after 1 or 2 players limping before me and I’m in late position. Also in the first 1 to 2 levels of a deep stack tournament I will limp with practically everything just because raising doesn’t do much with 350BB stacks all around the table.

It’s really frustrating for me though, other players habitually limp into pots from all positions. I habitually raise from late positions with a very wide range and they habitually call and, oh guess what….that’s right, check. Now I’m certain that I’m +EV with my continuation bets, but every so often I get some A-hole that limp/check/calls all the way down, or I fold at some point in there and lose more chips than I really want to.

It’s a giant pain in the ass for me and it doesn’t change; ever. So I’ve tried to take an analytical approach to this problem and attempted to understand the psyche of a limper. I’ve come up with a couple of questions:

1. Is it ever profitable to limp into a pot? And let’s forget about the standard rookie/weak player limp/raising from UTG.
2. What are they attempting to accomplish?
3. Do I need to limp more often?

I know everyone that sits at the table has seen Rounder’s or some other Hollywood conception of poker; generally I can see them coming from a mile away as they limp/raise from UTG so I don’t think that’s what I’m really after here. In such a case they obviously have their reasons for doing it – and I have done it too, albeit, I do only in very explicit and rare situations.

I just don’t see how it’s profitable to play like that – they get no information on anyone else’s hand; which is fine because they’re not playing poker but are playing cards instead. That’s ok if that’s how they want to play, it’s their money and it just adds value to my stack, but why limp in the first place; surely they must figure out eventually that it is not profitable; right?

I generally only limp if I’m in the blinds and no one has raised or behind two+ limpers and I never really intend on winning the pot; I just do it to try to throw players off of what I’m actually trying to accomplish. But this approach in and of itself is an oxymoron since if all they’re thinking about is their cards they certainly do not notice my limp/raise numbers.

Yet every few games or so, as I keep raising the same limpers over and over again (some of which are regular players and players I would otherwise consider to be above average), they say “Man….you raise every time I limp!” I always respond by saying “There’s a pattern emerging here…” which usually gets me a glare. :)

Anyway, ultimately I’m just not real sure of myself when dealing with limpers and default to aggression to save my bacon. That usually works, especially as the blinds gets higher and higher, but at the same time I wonder; should I be limping more often? Limping more often would be akin to taking a kind of “if you can’t beat them, join them” approach; or, do I keep on raising?

It’s just obvious that the limping is never going to end – so I need to understand that approach to the game better if such an approach exists.

Wether you should limp less or more really depends on the dynamics of the table .
For example : I play poker at two different venues, on the weekends I play at the local casino , where I almost never limp , here you get all sorts of people , the fish will call with marginal hands out of position, where I can out play them post flop (which is great ) , the regs will fold out of position without a hand and let me pick up the blinds most of the time. This strategy works great for me and being my natural style to come in with a raise , I started to employ this strategy , in the game I play on monday nite in a pub , here the opponents are mostly fish and are avarage . Here it doesnt make sence to raise everytime im first in for these reasons:
1. If I open say 3x BB (cant raise anymore because we want to see the flop cheap) with a hand such as KQ , 10J, A7s, 57s, 22, etc , I have no fold equity, so my steals dont work as these people will call with practacly any suited cards when the price is not too high (live players love to see a flop).
2. If I limp with the cards above , I will get a limpers all the way to the blinds who will check in the blinds most of the time (unless someone was premium then they raise) , thus alowing me to see a cheap flop with many marginal hands against a few opponents and when I hit big the implied odds go through the roof.
3 I raise between 3-6 x BB depending on the stage of the tornament (deeper raise less ) with premiums, when the pre flop raise is higher I get get less callers but will still get 2-3 who like their hand that much , thus thinning out the field and playing with a good hand post flop.
Also my raise % goes up as we get deep as all the fish always tighten up on the final table.
If I used this strategy at the casino where I mostly limp with marginal and raise more with premium , the regs would quickly catch on and make my life really difficult, but at the monday nite game nobody notices , they play their cards and thats it.
So what is a winning strategy in one game is a loosing strategy in a different game. This is why adjusting to dynamics of the table and the quality of players your up against is so important.
As a generall rule the more passive the table is the more my limp % goes up.
 
B

Blue_Fossil

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Total posts
383
Awards
1
Chips
12
I often wonder if there is an underground on-line community that caters to people that limp into pots in poker games. These people seem to crop up everywhere - despite it being pretty common knowledge that it's not an effective approach.

Once you have recognized that they are limpers/calling stations, reduce your cbet and raise percentages. Wait for a premium hands and slow-play all the way through. Let them keep calling your value bets. Take advantage of the free and/or cheap cards they are giving you, as well.

I'm adding that I don't get frustrated by these types of players - the opposite, actually. They're probably the main reason I make a little money playing poker. I'm not advanced enough to take on professional or elite players, but I can sure beat the novice/recreational player. I don't know how many pots I've won because I got to play a hand cheaply that I would have otherwise folded to a raise; or how many times I connected on the turn or river with their gifts of free/cheap cards to beat their Ace high or middle pair.

You know when you're beat - they don't. That's your advantage.
 
Last edited:
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
If we didn't have the limpers it would be an even tougher game. Just wait for your premium hands and take their chips
 
I

inflnlte

Rock Star
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Total posts
241
Chips
0
Punish the limpers but dont get too crazy. Usually wait for the better hands. I usually limp early in a MTT and sometimes when i dont want to raise fold but thats usually rare.
 
F

fugitive67

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Total posts
275
Chips
0
I'm pretty wary of limpers early in MTTs, but still you do want to make them pay to see a flop.


Later in an MTT, it's really situational ... stack size, position, history, etc.
 
N

nkrijeka

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Total posts
37
Chips
0
as discussed above, I'll only limp very early in an MTT when the blinds are low. it's just asking for trouble as the blinds grow.
 
BlackMoth5

BlackMoth5

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Total posts
86
Chips
0
I find that limping in late position with pretty much any hand especially late into tourneys can be extremely profitable, but I only do this if there are only calls or folds before me.
 
ovitoo

ovitoo

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Total posts
1,980
Awards
1
US
Chips
75
I find that limping in late position with pretty much any hand especially late into tourneys can be extremely profitable, but I only do this if there are only calls or folds before me.

Ummm...no.
 
K

kwhilborn

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Total posts
31
Chips
0
I dislike the OP, and dislike the dislike of limping.

HERE IS A PERFECT PLACE TO LIMP.

If you have suited connectors you are going for a flush or straight in most cases.

Now if you are going for a strong hand like this it makes sense to ENCOURAGE as many payers into the pot with their ace-rags. Then you hope they catch their ace or 2 pair while you make your flush/straight.

You also did not pay 3XBB to see the flop. (SAVINGS WOOT)

This is not possible if you scare them all away.

BTW this is not strategy I made up, this is strategy I have learned and agree with.

Now if your suited connectors are AK,KQ,QJ, or some such high pair then perhaps you should throw in a slight raise to scare away a few in case you need to get by with a pair of Queens.

The bottom line is limping has its place, and you are scaring away many double ups if you believe otherwise.

:viking: :jd4:

p.s. just fold and forget if you don't make enough outs. Suited connectors are often the ONLY lower cards I will play. a 7-8 of spades.. sure (depending on stage of play).
 
woohoo sue

woohoo sue

Brings Laughter
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Total posts
5,797
Awards
14
US
Chips
85
please people when u find a limper do the best u can to assist them to the rail where they can hold themselves up on their own.
lol....ok no letters please...lol
 
M

mjg1986

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Total posts
62
Chips
0
I love limping suited connectors, small pairs, suited Aces....as far as how to deal with them it depends on each situation because they are all different
 
K

kwhilborn

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Total posts
31
Chips
0
NOTE: I WANT TO ADD TO MY PREVIOUS POST BECAUSE I AM NOT AN EXPERT PLAYER , MERELY REPEATING WHAT I LEARNED AND CONSIDER VALID.

Also

NOTE: I did try to pm the OP to discuss but I cannot send a PM until after 15 postings. I am hoping he reconsiders the limping stance especially now that I clarify where the advice came from.

I am a new member and the advice I "gave" did not originate from me and I think came from TJ Cloutier or someone of his caliber.

The advice is contrary to the OP which is an Expert Player and although I have won first place in hundreds (thousands) of low stakes tournaments I am a newb at high stakes poker and hardly an expert.

I have heard arguments against playing suited connectors, but during loose play it is good. you cannot have your opponents predicting all your moves so a few lower card calls are good and suited connectors are a decent sign that it is time to switch it up if you can limp in.

I have also heard arguments that you barely hit a straight or flush and should not try. The same argument could be said for 2 pair, etc. It is surprising how often suited connectors can pay off especially if you are seeing hands 3X cheaper.

It makes a lot of sense to keep as many bettors as possible in the pot when drawing for a big hand (depending on outs), and I agree with Cloutier.

once again. i am repeating what came from one of the better tournament players of all time TJ Cloutier (I think). Can't recall what book I read it in actually but know it was from a repetitive tournament champion.

I hope the OP tries this limping stuff and alters his view. It would be nice to think I have affected an expert opinion. I just need to play less scared in bigger money so the transition to higher stakes is somewhat painful.
 
Last edited:
urzana

urzana

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2012
Total posts
12
Chips
0
Should do everything in your power to punish players who limp preflop. When they are weak, make them pay for what they play weak hands with weak tactics.
 
K

kanselau

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Total posts
439
Chips
0
Should do everything in your power to punish players who limp preflop. When they are weak, make them pay for what they play weak hands with weak tactics.
In general i sort of agree here but.......
would you punish a nit limping in UTG late in a tornament with 15BB in his stack ??
Play the player and the situation rather than the general principle. There is a ton of situations where it does not make sense to punish the limpers and a fold or limp on your behalf is a better play .
 
T

Tgen

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Total posts
196
Chips
0
raise them with any hand for 5-6bb from position if they call they will usually check and a standar cbet will take down the pot , be aware though because sometimes their king/ace-rag hits and they dont fold , if they call your cbet you probably lost the pot.
 
R

redwards92

never going to move up
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2013
Total posts
2,234
Awards
1
Chips
8
X

xrhstos

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Total posts
198
Awards
1
Chips
2
Limping is fundamental, but yeah going all in with 200 bb doesn't seem profitable unless you have aces, raising three times the pot works for me for both making spew hands to fold and to get more value on monsters
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Limping is fundamental, but yeah going all in with 200 bb doesn't seem profitable unless you have aces, raising three times the pot works for me for both making spew hands to fold and to get more value on monsters

What?

Limping is what you’re supposed to do and you should go all-in only if you have AA? Boy that sounds great, I can’t see a single problem with that statement and line of thought. LOL.

It makes a lot of sense to keep as many bettors as possible in the pot when drawing for a big hand (depending on outs), and I agree with Cloutier.

And what happens when you miss? As you will do most of the time? This doesn’t make any sense at all and Cloutier never said anything like that. This must be taken out of context if he ever even said anything close to that in the first place.

There is a time and place for limping, I’m not arguing any of that; a limper with <16BB stack for example. Often, I will follow suit and limp with him, if I spike two pair or better, I’ve likely got his whole stack. But open limping is not a profitable way to play poker, period. The only way for you to win, consistently, with such a strategy (if you can even call it that) is to get lots of good cards and connect with lots of good flops; in other words, stone cold “luck”. And yes it is possible, I see if just about every weekend in low buy-in tournaments; it actually is amazing how little skill low buy-in tournaments, and even some medium buy-in tournaments, take to win.

Also, you need to pick and thought and stick with it, there are at least 4 different thoughts in your post with none of them even making sense – I’m not sure what you were trying to say in your post, but it’s not much more than incoherent rambling; “…TJ Cloutier or someone of his caliber.” What am I going to do with that? You’re not even quoting him.

I would love to have a conservation with you about this topic, that’s why I post on this site – but man, you’ve got to come to the table with something better than the fact that you have won thousands of low buy-in tournaments (extremely doubtful by the way) but think open limping is profitable.
 
LuckyBundy13

LuckyBundy13

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Total posts
512
Chips
0
Limping IMO is WEAK. Even at the lower levels of poker, I'm not coming in with the mentality of "Oh I hope I hit this flop and get paid". It just doesn't happen very often and I need my chips to raise you out of a pot :cool: There is no outplaying pub players or freerolls...etc. because they won't fold. They don't think past the first level. PUNISH and get information. Thin the field and better the odds.
They know...I'm either out early or stacking deep late.
 
K

kwhilborn

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Total posts
31
Chips
0
@ ssbn743,

I am open to learning but was hoping I could convince you to alter your stance on this subject. I now know it was Cloutier I was quoting.

I suggest buying his book on the subject as I am not explaining as well as I should.

Imagine you have 9-10 both hearts and you limp in with 5 others. If you had raised 3XBB here you would likely narrow the field to 1-2 callers (guessing obviously for point). Now the flop comes up 8-4-Q with 2 of them hearts leaving you with a flush draw. Now you have a 40(ish)% chance of winning this hand.

Note: If you do not hit any cards or flush draw and your hand looks like crap then just throw it away as it only cost you 1BB for this chance.

But if you do have a hand then it is always best if someone else has a decent hand as well. So bet as if you have a good hand already and be careful not to go or be called all-in so be aware of pot sizes and players chip counts.

Now the math was shown in Cloutiers book about how much you could get into a pot with 3-4 callers as opposed to just one or two, and you have a 40% chance at getting much more than a double-up.

Please bear in mind I am not quoting my own strategy, and wish I could put this more elegantly.

I actually had tried PM'ing you the day I mentioned this, but was a new member, and could not pm with less than 15 postings.

I have been playing online poker for over 12 years mostly on FT and PS. When I stated I have won first place in hundreds possibly thousands of tournaments I am speaking mostly of 27 and 45 player sit&gos. I have found that with lower stakes games it is better to play against at least 27 so that the rif raf ace huggers are all gone by the final table. I have done this to learn. I am also looking at my win history over a dozen years If I won 20 SNG's a year I'd have won hundreds by now, and I normally see cash in 12% of my games and even if that is (my past) a low percentage I still normally win SNG (First place) at least 3-4 times per week (sometimes a lot more).

I do not think my claim of winning hundreds (possibly thousands) of low stakes tournaments is out of line. I used to print out the email notifications and put them in a duotang for confidence building, but stopped that years ago.

I do know that if I have suited connectors on a loose table I will often limp in following Cloutiers advice of wanting people contributing to the pot.

I almost want to find another copy of that book (tournament one) so I can quote him for you. I honestly think you would enjoy it.
 
valientone

valientone

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Total posts
113
Chips
0
Normally the way to deal with limpers has alot of factors involved, atleast whenever I play. I tend to look at how the people have been playing, and the level of tightness involved, and also look at the Blind to Chip Count Ratio... Normally you dont want to get yourself all-in with a limper unless you have the nuts, due to the range of possible hands they may have... hope that helps someone a little..
 
caintain

caintain

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Total posts
60
Chips
0
you crush em.... "thats awesome bill"
raise raise raise limp means your weak
 
aa88wildbill

aa88wildbill

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Total posts
647
Chips
0
The psyche of limpers, they are (small pot poker) players. They try to minimize the amount of money, or chips that they may lose. If your intentions is to get rid of them from a hand. Find out what their calling limit is, and then bet above it. They will fold.
 
Top