How do I handle your check-raises????

Lately, I've been getting check-raised to death...well, not exactly just lately, it's been about 3 years of constantly being check-raised by my opponents. Logically they couldn't possibly have the nut or near nut hand every time this happens because nut and near nut hands are rare in holdem. Nevertheless, they're illogically getting in a lot of chips against me whenever I miss the flop after raising preflop, they check, indicating weakness, I bet, they check-raise. I have to fold when I don't have anything, but what if I do have something? Are you a check-raiser? What kinds of hands do you check-raise with? Do you check-raise with just top pair big kicker sometimes? Do you ever check-raise bluff if you think your opponent's bet was just a c-bet with nothing? Let's say you call my preflop raise with Q8 and you miraculously hit 2 eights on the flop...you check, I bet, now do you check-raise???? Aren't you afraid I might pick up on the fact that you have an 8 and fold and you lose extra chips you could have made from me had you just check-checked and maybe hit me with a bet on the turn? I just don't understand how your check-raising works so well whenever I'm your opponent, but I do admit it does. It's turned me from a winning player to a break-even player (well, that and a bad luck streak where you're hitting your flush draws way too often)...

can anyone help me figure out what's going on here so I can maybe take a better approach?

zingbust said:

Lately, I've been getting check-raised to death...well, not exactly just lately, it's been about 3 years of constantly being check-raised by my opponents. Logically they couldn't possibly have the nut or near nut hand every time this happens because nut and near nut hands are rare in holdem. Nevertheless, they're illogically getting in a lot of chips against me whenever I miss the flop after raising preflop, they check, indicating weakness, I bet, they check-raise. I have to fold when I don't have anything, but what if I do have something? Are you a check-raiser? What kinds of hands do you check-raise with? Do you check-raise with just top pair big kicker sometimes? Do you ever check-raise bluff if you think your opponent's bet was just a c-bet with nothing? Let's say you call my preflop raise with Q8 and you miraculously hit 2 eights on the flop...you check, I bet, now do you check-raise???? Aren't you afraid I might pick up on the fact that you have an 8 and fold and you lose extra chips you could have made from me had you just check-checked and maybe hit me with a bet on the turn? I just don't understand how your check-raising works so well whenever I'm your opponent, but I do admit it does. It's turned me from a winning player to a break-even player (well, that and a bad luck streak where you're hitting your flush draws way too often)...

can anyone help me figure out what's going on here so I can maybe take a better approach?

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Um generally its hard to define a checkraise on a whole contrast.. the only true way to know is pick up information on how active they arehopefully see somewholecards, take down the next street, firstly you dont wanna fold to a check raise unless you have too (no equity)
It can damage your image and invite players to put more pressure on you,

for me personally I'll play the hand out in sync with my betting, if I've raised 3x and got called I'l look at the board, Im not affraid to check call with air or check raise if a K or A hits - its always going to be hard for them to come all the way to the river after that with alot of aggression, unless they are very strong.,
I find a good opponent will view a check call as stronger than the check raise, because by check raising early im giving away my hand strength* so they are weary of the check call on the flop. (ofcourse your image needs to be in sync)

that being said if their is a wet board like a flush draw, straight/or backdoor str8. Im happy to put a big raise in with like top pair/any non flushing made hands... or a re raise, check raise.

its almost impossible for my opponents to define whether im repping a flush draw or trying to protect my hand unless they know my tendancies very well.
the key is really to play in sync with your pre action and the board, in addition semi bluffing your equity hands, or floating off the first barrel with the intention of improving or repping a scare card.

alot of players will just call you down if you c-bet hoping to improve hit top pairs, hit draws, so when that check-raise comes in hes either a tricky F*** or he has something to seriously think about. LOL

but one way to reduce the amount of check raise bluffs is to play back at them dont become an easy target, its then going to be more likely a genuine hand

To get more out of the post you should give some specific examples , It is very hard to tell why your getting C/R , I suspect you are using selective memory by saying you constantly get C/R.

Strong opponents will pick up on the fact that you have a high fold to C/R %, and will start C/R you till death until you stand up to them.
If I see that a opponent thinks he can bully me around with C/R, 3bet etc ill let him know very early to find someone else by coming back at them strong and they usually think twice about 3 bet C/R light . If you let the table see that your weak they will all jump on you .

I also suspect your Continuation Bet is really high , and most times your going to miss the flop , opponents thoughts are " story doesn't add up, he cant be hitting this frequently" so opponents check , you C-Bet as usual , he knows you fold to C/R often and your a victim.

Post specific examples , look at stats, there's got to be a leak somewhere.

Are you being check raised on the flop?

If so, I would suggest 2 things

#1 reduce your C-Bet frequency, save it for dry raggedy flops
#2 Don't always fold to a check raise-especially if there are draws out there

I personally don't check-raise on the flop a lot. If I do I probably have a monster draw (14+ outs) or I have a very strong but vulnerable hand in a multiway pot (like a set when I'm 1st to act with 3 other players....I'll go for the check raise here to protect my hand). Or I have nothing and I'm just exploiting somebody who c-bets too much.

So, if I was your opponent, you would be incorrect to fold all the time since I don't always have the near nuts when I check raise. If I have the near nuts I tend to check-call.

Well, it actually depends. I'f i'm bluffing it depends on the player, and the flop and the remaining stacks. If I have something like top pair, I don't check raise for a simple reason: I will make all worse hands fold and make better hands call, so it makes no sense. I think they check raise with a great hand or nothing, I think it makes no sense check raising with top pair, at least for me. What limits do you play?

I shift gears! My check raise could be a bluff, or I could have a middle hand, or I could have the nuts. For you to try and handle my check raise, well you would have to know how I am playing, what gear am I in? Have I made this play b 4? or is it the first time you have seen me make this play? Maybe the board texture just doesn't match my image of the time of my play ( as cotta777 mentioned ). Call if you have draws and are getting a good price to call after the check raise. Fold when the play is too aggressive to serve you good with those same draws or little hands like pairs.

OK, I'll try to find specific examples and post them...thanks for all your helpful answers!

Oh, I play the very lowest limits possible...freerolls, and $1 buy-ins...but when I was playing $400 buyins, they were doing it to me often then too.

Now that I know it's not always nuts or near nuts, I'll call more often...usually the checkraise is all in or close to that.

My experience has been that when I do call, they always have a big made hand.

Maybe my timing of when I do call has been bad, I don't know.... because they are doing it more and more and more these days.

I hardly ever c-bet...I don't c-bet very often at all...but the minute I do c-bet, bammm check-raise, almost every time. It's almost as though they can see my hole cards.

is all very relative as there are several factors to take into account .. how many chips you got in that position such that esm tournament time before or after the bubble, how much are the blind ... you see it all depends .. so you have to study a little and watch videos of professional players, that you will help a lot in the time to take a hand

zingbust said:

OK, I'll try to find specific examples and post them...thanks for all your helpful answers!

Oh, I play the very lowest limits possible...freerolls, and $1 buy-ins...but when I was playing $400 buyins, they were doing it to me often then too.

Now that I know it's not always nuts or near nuts, I'll call more often...usually the checkraise is all in or close to that.

My experience has been that when I do call, they always have a big made hand.

Maybe my timing of when I do call has been bad, I don't know.... because they are doing it more and more and more these days.

I hardly ever c-bet...I don't c-bet very often at all...but the minute I do c-bet, bammm check-raise, almost every time. It's almost as though they can see my hole cards.

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Yeah will definitely need actual examples / hh's.

Things like preflop action, stack sizes, stats of villians, your stats etc... that is needed to further determine what the issue is.

I am assuming when I see ( c-bet ) you are referring to a continuous bet so please correct me if I am wrong...... I see that you mentioned you don't continuous bet very often..That might be the problem. Just maybe.. With out a c-bet, it is a sign of weakness, if you don't do the c-bet on hands when you raise pre-flop, then in a hand when you do hit pairs or draws on the flop and you do c-bet, a good player is going to check to you and raise because they have the nuts, or beings that you don't c-bet very often, they are trying to figure you out and want to know how strong of hand you really have because you did come at them with a c-bet, so in return, they hit you with a re raise and can scare you right out of the pot. Work on your aggression but be careful, I have lost big stacks because my aggression level was too high. Last.. I c-bet almost every hand I raise pre-flop with. Depending on the hand I raise with, only certain flops with certain good players and how they are playing the table at that time, I will slow down.

well, now I'm confused...the first assumption was that I c-bet too often and that's why I was getting check-raised often, but then when I admit I don't c-bet very often, now that suddenly could be the problem. The other oddity is that when I do hit my flop, and they check, and I bet, they almost NEVER check-raise...they either fold and fail to become the weak calling stations I used to face, or they do call, in which case I might win the pot later, which is why I'm still in the game at all and still have a small amount of success.

C-Bets are a huge topic on their own....it doesn't sound like this OP is really talking about his C-Bets getting check-raised but I will de-rail a little bit here...

for me, I have found a nice equilibrium with C-betting 2/3 of the pot 2/3 of the time if I was the pre-flop raiser and I have only 1 or 2 callers at most.

I C-Bet regardless of the strength of my hand, but instead use board texture to determine whether or not I C-Bet. dry, raggedy boards=C-Bet if it's coordinated, draw heavy, or has high cards I don't C-Bet EVEN IF I SMASHED THE FLOP!

If I'm in a mutli-way pot I only bet for value.

If a player bets into me and I have position, I'll only continue with an information raise (usually a positional bluff because I smell weakness, or I think they are trying to stop n go me) or I'll flat call with a nice draw, or a nice made hand.

I will rarely check-raise with a TPTK type hand. I'll flat in position, or bet first out of position, or occasionally check-call out of position.

Is it possible your flop bets are correlated to the strength of your hands and THAT is what is being exploited?

Well all I can say is, if i check raise you, then you should raise me back so I can go all in.

dudemanstan said:

Well all I can say is, if i check raise you, then you should raise me back so I can go all in.

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LOL are you bluffing?

i check raised only when i hit big on the flop and if my opponent check raise me , i have to see what kind of player he his ,has he previously did same to any other player ,i would analyse his action and then i might call him or reraise him all in ,if i think i have the best but out there

When somebody check raise me so many times, i let him win some little pots to make his confidence grow a little bit to latter make him pay all back. When a tight player check raises me it´s almost certain that he have a hand so i let go the pot and move on. So that´s my advise. If a tight player raise you have to put him on a nice hand; Against a loose player wait for the right time and the right spot to bust him.

thanks again for all your replies...they couldn't have come at a better time for me in all my confusion...2 of the things said turned out to be right...#1 I am not being check-raised to death all the time, I just had selective memory about it, which caused me to change my game and not c-bet after missing as much any more, being paranoid of the check-raise to come which led to #2, not c-betting enough being the problem. I was being driven insane by a bad run and my own faulty thoughts....thanks for being rational with me and making me see things more closely to the way they really are!

Hey, I really am happy that all this was good help for you. I am new to the site, but I am enjoying what I have been reading and posting.. I never realized how much fun it was to put some of my thoughts out in writing about poker.. Again, glad all of us here could help a little bit and get you away from that paranoid feeling. Good luck at the tables!

zingbust said:

well, now I'm confused...the first assumption was that I c-bet too often and that's why I was getting check-raised often, but then when I admit I don't c-bet very often, now that suddenly could be the problem. The other oddity is that when I do hit my flop, and they check, and I bet, they almost NEVER check-raise...they either fold and fail to become the weak calling stations I used to face, or they do call, in which case I might win the pot later, which is why I'm still in the game at all and still have a small amount of success.

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Think about your timing.

Maybe you bet more quickly when you 'have it' than you do when you are bluffing/semi-bluffing with your c-bets.

You seem to be confident that they fold when you have a hand and check-raise when you don't, so if it isn't your timing it is almost certainly some other tell. Bet sizing maybe, or something else.

Of course, it could be,as someone else has said, be a selective memory thing.

I like to play check-reise. And I raise in two situations.
1. In river, when I had only flush or straight draw, nothing or low pair,
2. When I'm sure I have best hand on table or for example AK on hand (flop A;6;K with different suits).

Here is the thing, if you are getting TOO MUCH check raised, your image on the table shows that if they check raise you and you missed the flop, you will fold, so it will defenetly work at least a try. Mini raises makes you fold? If it does, it's very profitable to them, and that's why you are getting it a lot. My advise to you is just like what kmichaels said. I roll the same way and it Works like magic!

Give it a try, and also, try to mix your game up a little bit. When someone raises you, re-raise! If he calls or raise again, you might consider folding. I hope this helped. Good luck!

kmichaels said:

When somebody check raise me so many times, i let him win some little pots to make his confidence grow a little bit to latter make him pay all back. When a tight player check raises me it´s almost certain that he have a hand so i let go the pot and move on. So that´s my advise. If a tight player raise you have to put him on a nice hand; Against a loose player wait for the right time and the right spot to bust him.

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I would do it based on his previous hands. If you think he likes to bluff, play him that way.

Your not going to see check-raising a lot to start with, if you are, i would be changing sites. In the instances where you are check-raised, does the villain do it often? If so, he more than likely is just stealing, if not, he probably has a very strong hand. I reserve the check-raise for aggressive, and loose players. And to change my style to keep other players wondering. I have noticed players in the higher stakes tend to check-raise more often.

SANDYHOOKER KY that is an awesome strategy, to save the check raise. I am going to try to reserve in maybe the same kind of way. I do use the check raise but maybe too often or at the wrong time when they don't have at least a marginal hand to call with and chase with. Seems like I can do a check raise once or twice and it stops working. Even if I have been transferred to a new table. Also, when using a check raise, is there a general specific reason to use this play? Thanks for any help.

Or is the check raise a play that can be used in several types of situations?