Heads up help - anyone!

Yesterday I earned a second place finish in a deep stack tournament at my local casino. Obviously I’m disappointed though. The issue is that I don’t get a lot of head-ups experience. We almost always chop at the final table – here in Colorado, the tax laws and payouts make chopping the correct play most of the time. Yesterday, however, both myself and my opponent agreed to play it out -tax laws be damned.

When we started heads up play, I was the slight chip leader with $1.8 Million while my opponent had 1.6 Million. Very soon, however, we were dead even. We played head-ups for about 2 hours, with swings going both ways - at one point I had over $2 Million.

The only heads-up experience I get is online, usually, and being an American means I haven’t played a serious heads up match for nearly 2 years now because I just don’t play online due to my socialist leadership. I played my opponent well, though and never paid too much for his big hands. He played just as well though as he folded after I made a straight with and flopped the nut flush with .

I lost a big hand to him, when we had set over set. How I didn’t go broke is a testament to how well I was playing my opponent as I folded the set on the river. By that point, however, I had lost a big pot and was down to about $950K.

A couple of hands later I was first to act from position with and raised to $200K (blinds were 100K 50K, 10K ante). My opponent called.

Flop:


He checks to me and I bet $125K, he calls.

Turn:


We both check.

River:


He checks and I bet $200K. He then moved all-in.

Folding leaves me less than 5 Big Blinds. I chewed on this decision for better than 5 minutes but what can I do? I knew I was beat, but couldn’t explain how! I call and he shows and his kicker played!

I was uncomfortable with heads-up play, it just felt abnormal, but really don’t think I played that bad and just caught a cooler on the last hand to lose.

I’m just looking for some advice on heads-up play and practice.

Looks like you played really well, so other than experience not sure what you are looking for here.
Mostly the keys to success in HU play are agression & pressure.

I agree with Kenzie...HU play is totally different from regular play. It is aggressive, skill & lots of luck...and just hoping you get enough good cards to win or you're extremely good with bluffing!

Shove pre in the J8s hand 9.5bb eff, ever considering folding after you get the worlds bet flop and river is silly imo. from the sounds of it you a raising an extremely narrow range and playing too passively in others, given the stack sizes you described not going bust set over set HU is a massive massive leak. you need to realise that range widen considerably HU, such that A high on some turns and rivers is a SDV or even valuebetting hand.

duggs said:

Shove pre in the J8s hand 9.5bb eff, ever considering folding after you get the worlds bet flop and river is silly imo. from the sounds of it you a raising an extremely narrow range and playing too passively in others, given the stack sizes you described not going bust set over set HU is a massive massive leak. you need to realise that range widen considerably HU, such that A high on some turns and rivers is a SDV or even valuebetting hand.

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Look, I’m not going to disagree with your mission statement here, but two things:

1. I am not one of the “Young Guns” of poker, and I’ll probably never win a bracelet!

2. Most importantly, I had a set of threes on a board – not that hard to get away from, I’m not claiming to be Negreanu or anything. But seriously, what are you advocating that I do, voluntarily lose because it was the right play!

Also, I didn’t give you enough information to tell me that I opening to heavy or playing too passively; are we talking about assumptions now?

I had 16 BB with a $1.6 Million stack, but so did he – the game changes dramatically HU and the same rules do not apply.

What I am really looking for here is some advice, or coaching if you will. As a general rule of thumb what hands do you play? Which hands do you fold without a fight? Any? Or do you just follow a pattern, raise, raise fold, fold, call, call? What kinds of raises do you make, how do you continue after the flop and on the turn and the river? These are things I do every day in poker games, and I know and understand my reasoning behind each and every one of them – but HU I don’t. It’s not like I’ve never played HU before, and given how long it’s been I think I played well (and yes I folded a set) so it’s not like it was completely alien to me – it just felt so awkward not knowing what to do. I guess I was really amazed at how comfortable I normally feel as contrasted to how I felt HU.

lol dont know why you are nutting, you asked for help if you dont want it just say so

Not nutting, and I asked for help – not you did this wrong, then you did this wrong, oh and then you did this wrong. I didn’t put enough information in the post for you to make some of the suggestions and assumptions you made – I was just pointing that out!

I asked for help, not a s*&^ sandwich!

telling you you played awesome and stroking your ego isnt helping you tho. if thats what you want dont ask for help. pointing out leaks and errors is the best way to learn.

The problem is that I didn’t post those example hands with any intention of actually talking about them; if I had I would have needed to include more information; and most of that information is highly subjective.

Secondly, HU play is so idiosyncratic that it’s impossible for leaks to be identified from posts. The perfect example is where I folded a set of threes and am immediately told, “You played that wrong”. How do you know that? Certainly folding to retain a 9.5 BB effective stack is not ideal (by the way the BB was 80K with a 5K ante at that point I believe) but it’s better than 0 BB.

I’m just looking for a box, or structure by which to play HU; same kind of box that tells me to fold A J off from UTG in a 10/9 handed game. But using that for an example, do hands even come into play when HU, would I raise K 4 but fold A 2? Or is it just a pattern that is impervious to the cards?

How about bet/raise sizing – do I min re-raise pre-flop, how about 3-beting? After the flop? C-bets? Etc…?

I appreciate any help you can offer, don’t get me wrong I’m not busting your balls; I just don’t think there was enough information, or that you have the perspective based on the information in the OP to identify a “massive massive leak”.

I play alot of 6 man SNG tables and find myself heads up often . It is really a game of aggresion and stack sizes , if you have the large stack apply pressure relentlesly .When I am short it turns into a shove or fold game , and as you pointed out the whole affair is very idiosyncratic and can change very quickly. It is also very dependant on your experience with the specific player and how much gamble you are comfortable with , take this with all the gravity you put on a bloke who has had quite a few drinks before posting.

(33) my point is assuming it was a single raised pot at 14bb eff post flop, how did you not get it in on the flop? it also sounds like you are reasonably results orientated.

basics-
open wider than you call
3bet a polarised range at deeper effective stacks (shove a more depolarized range at 16bb eff)
defends hands with good equity, (C/J a wide range of hands oop)
raise a super wide range (bet/shove fairly wide for value and as a bluff)
pot control some of your worst hands and A high hands on textures unlikely to connect.
evaluate opponents tendencies and adjust accordingly

You played heads up for 2 hours? Jesus.

Heads up is a game of agression, not playing the cards. It is about stealing blinds and gradually getting yourself to have an edge in stack size.

So, there is 3.2M in chips in play, and when you had 2M he had 1.2. At this stage you need to steal every hand and keep the pressure on double barreling or pushing on the flop with ATC. If you can keep getting to this sort of advantage, where you have a stack which, if you lose a flip or 60/40, will still leave you a playable stack, then you will win. One of those 60/40's where you are 40 or a flip will go your way.
The J8 hand is a cold deck, but playing as above means cold decks do not happen anywhere near as often. If you don't play like it, then the game comes down to who gets on the wrong side of a cold deck, and playing hoping to get on the right side is a neutral EV way of playing in the long run.
Heads up play is key to your overall game. How many times are you in a hand against 1 other player? Knowing how to play heads up post flop is a key skill you need. When I started playing years ago I realised this and played just heads up games for a few days to learn how to play them. Go and play a load of heads up SNG's and learn it, it will make a massive difference to your game.

Could you explain the flow in the J8s hand? Duggs is correct, a push pre takes it down there and then, removing the chance of a cold deck, and increasing your stack and lowering his. See above.....

enjoy

Nooneinparticular said:

You played heads up for 2 hours? Jesus.
Heads up is a game of agression, not playing the cards. It is about stealing blinds and gradually getting yourself to have an edge in stack size.

So, there is 3.2M in chips in play, and when you had 2M he had 1.2. At this stage you need to steal every hand and keep the pressure on double barreling or pushing on the flop with ATC. If you can keep getting to this sort of advantage, where you have a stack which, if you lose a flip or 60/40, will still leave you a playable stack, then you will win. One of those 60/40's where you are 40 or a flip will go your way.

The J8 hand is a cold deck, but playing as above means cold decks do not happen anywhere near as often. If you don't play like it, then the game comes down to who gets on the wrong side of a cold deck, and playing hoping to get on the right side is a neutral EV way of playing in the long run.

Heads up play is key to your overall game. How many times are you in a hand against 1 other player? Knowing how to play heads up post flop is a key skill you need. When I started playing years ago I realised this and played just heads up games for a few days to learn how to play them. Go and play a load of heads up SNG's and learn it, it will make a massive difference to your game.

Could you explain the flow in the J8s hand? Duggs is correct, a push pre takes it down there and then, removing the chance of a cold deck, and increasing your stack and lowering his. See above.....

enjoy

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We did play for 2 hours, a little over 2 hours actually. It was fun, I thoroughly enjoyed it and my opponent was very good player.

The J8 is absolutely correct and I knew it as soon as I lost to J9 – I should have shoved; why I didn’t I don’t know, I had already shoved a couple of times with my stack after folding my set.

As for the set over set hand I raised pre with 33, he called. Flop was nasty and I checked, he checked. The turn got even worse – I checked again as did he. The river was the three I was looking for and I bet but got raised all-in to which I folded. He showed me 10 10 which made a set on the nasty looking flop. It makes sense now right?

I feel like I didn’t play poorly, I just felt uncomfortable more than anything; that and I really didn’t have a f*&^ing clue what I was doing!

thats a different runout to the one described above if you arent b/c KQ3hhh with 33 then fold pre.

and how did you lose a big pot when no bets went in and had 16bb at the start of the hand but 9.5 after? this hand makes no sense

Stop fixating on this hand – I never even put it in the post in the detail you’re asking for. The last post is the most correct, every other time I referred to it was a reference only!

You know what let’s do it – F*&*me!

At that point I had ~$1.6 - $1.7 Million and blinds were 80K 40K 5K. I’m on the button and in the SB for 40K.

I raise to 160K with (I don’t remember the suits – except that I didn’t have a heart.) My opponent calls.

Flop:



We both check.

Turn:



We both check again.

River:



The pot is 330K, My opponent checks and I make it $125K to which he shoves all-in and I fold. I still had ~$1.3 Million. Let’s just move past this huh? I didn’t include it in any detail for a reason, and I’m sorry I ever mentioned it!

Right after this blinds went up to 100K 50K 10K, I folded a couple of pots as he kept the pressure eon and very soon I found myself at the 950K I put in the OP.

c/f river, non hearts arent calling so you get no value, he also butchered his hand fwiw

Min raising heads up is generally a bad idea.

Lets say blinds are 50/100 no ante.
SB 50 + BB 100, pot is 150. min raise to 200, so 100 more to call in 250, so you are getting 2.5 to 1, making any 2 cards a call as if you have 23o against 2 overs then you need 2 to 1 to get pot odds.....

So, a min raise should be called, and get called, every time.
Heads up 3Xing is better, but dont fall into the trap of 4Xing with small PP's as you will be incredibly readable.

Seriously, go and spend a coupld of days playing some smaller heads up SNGs, and then sprinkle some more expensive ones in once you get the hang of it. You will probably lose money but it will be money well spent in the long run.

min raise is >>>>>>> 3x, because we want them calling with a weak range OOP

Play the button aggressively, be careful out of position, and focus on your opponent. High cards and mid pairs go way up in value. Stealing pots is essential.

FYI the Republicans are responsible for UIGEA.

GWU73 said:

Play the button aggressively, be careful out of position, and focus on your opponent. High cards and mid pairs go way up in value. Stealing pots is essential.

FYI the Republicans are responsible for UIGEA.

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Well I guess it’s pretty obvious you like that asshole that just got re-elected!

Republican, Democrat – there’re all socialist!

I just tried to cash a check from Lock Poker today at my American bank…ROFL; you don’t even want to hear the details trust me!

duggs said:

min raise is >>>>>>> 3x, because we want them calling with a weak range OOP

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Nope. Disagree. Im raising the button 100% of the time, so I dont want a call >50% as my hands will be all over the place.

heads up is not about waiting for good hands. It's about playing the player, not the cards and being agressive.

i think you played that hand well and it is unlucky that he had the other J with a slightly higher kicker. If it was me in the same heads-up i would've made the same river call. There are just too many hands in someone's range when playing heads up that it would rarely be a good play to fold a jack in that situation. And as a side note, obviously you don't know what socialism is hahaa. Socialists don't view the government as an authoritarian power to make strict laws and enforce them (as with the anti poker legislation in the US)---socialism is about economic fairness and equality so the strong authoritative moves by a government fall under a conservative view.

frozensprx said:

i think you played that hand well and it is unlucky that he had the other J with a slightly higher kicker. If it was me in the same heads-up i would've made the same river call. There are just too many hands in someone's range when playing heads up that it would rarely be a good play to fold a jack in that situation. And as a side note, obviously you don't know what socialism is hahaa. Socialists don't view the government as an authoritarian power to make strict laws and enforce them (as with the anti poker legislation in the US)---socialism is about economic fairness and equality so the strong authoritative moves by a government fall under a conservative view.

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By economic fairness to you mean talking from richer people because you’re not as rich?

Seriously, are you advocating socialism – that’s what it sounds like to me!

ssbn743 said:

By economic fairness to you mean talking from richer people because you’re not as rich?

Seriously, are you advocating socialism – that’s what it sounds like to me!

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No, we are talking about an economic system similiar to the one we had in the 1950s/60s/70s which enabled most Americans who worked hard and played by the rules to lead a dignified life, spend domestically, pay taxes and provide their children with a path to the upper and upper middle classes if they had the talent and drive to get there.

You seem to prefer the Mexican/South African/Indonesian model of winner takes all and fk the rest of the population....

Well you may agree with that type of distribution of wealth or believe it to be "fair" or "free", but most educated people can see where those types of economies inevitably lead...and it isnt back to some fantasy of what America was in 1986.

Anyway, we dont really need to convince the shrinking white undereducated/overclass class of anything as they find themselves as the new shrinking MINORITY in the new America.

Buenas Dias republican friends.....enjoy your Rush Limbaugh delusions....we will enjoy running the country.


P.S.

Is OP really discussing play and big time strat stuff when he was HU with 16/18BB.....its just flipping with FE at that point if you are playing properly basically.

You should be raising a ton and be willing to get it in a lot....3 bet shoving a ton....etc. Dude, your HU with Effective stacks under 20 BB....get it in and hope he is folding too much.