Having balls (fearless play) a stronger asset than having skill in a tournament?

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cotta777

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I personally would argue that although skill over a long period of time will account for a more consistant profit. A fearless player 'lets say a decent player' knows the game quite well' but not an expert

Late stage tournament play the decent fearless player has a good chance of taking first place.
where as a more consistant winner who does not take as many risks can endure a profitable run for a long time providing they have all the assets required to do so.
But over the long hall if were talking big tournaments huge fields where lots of luck is involved and alot of balls and big money involved.
I think the fearless player would steamroll through the field a fair percentage of the time when ofcourse the tables are on his side (quite nitty players) or guys trying to clime the cash ladder'

so theoreticly you dont have to be an off the scale player to win a big tournament. you just have to have a decent standard of knowledge and have that streak in you where getting the chips in good does not phase you regardless of the money at stake.

granted this player will go out of more tournaments but its inevitable that adventually he would get a big score with that style and win mentality
 
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RamdeeBen

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I think you are thinking incorrectly and seem to think the fearless play isn't linked with skill when it actually is the best skill a tournament player can use if used correctly.

Every good player takes these "fearless" plays as you say, it's pretty standard to be aggressive towards later stages of tournaments to accumulate chips and put maximum pressure on the mediocre players and tight players. The nits who just play their cards ( I assume you mean the "skill aspect" because they don't spew or do that many stupid stuff. They just play their ABC game which can be profitable in micro/small stakes) They know how to steal but don't know how to 3B/4Bsteal light or squeeze etc etc in the correct spots just don't profit anywhere near as much as the "fearless" players.

I think you have fearless and skill as different aspects of poker but actually fearless play is a skill in tournament poker, a very good and probably most important skill in terms of maximizing your ROI% in tournaments. There's fearless/bad players who are overly aggressive and have no idea how to use aggression correctly in the right spots but every single top good tournament player is fearless in the sense of what you mean but the difference is they do it correctly and it's the most important skill involved in tournament poker if you want to be massively profitable.
 
aa88wildbill

aa88wildbill

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I think you're wrong about the "expert players". "Expert players" know, you play 2,3,4,5 handed differently than a full table, and or late stage, final table. Meaning "expert players" play a larger variety of hands, and are willing to take chances they didn't take in the beginning. As far as the fearless players who Steamroll through the field early on in the tournament, most of them never make it to the cash.
 
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lost2qandisa

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I agree there fearless players would cash far less than an expert. A short term gain in chips does not equate to a long term gain in chips or money.
 
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cotta777

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You All have good points, well yea I suppose ram alot of deep late stage players would have that fearless streak.
I just think when big money is at stake we are talking like sunday million and above wcoop and live events maybe even some medium buy in games like $105. players tend to tighten up unless they have a shit load of money in the bank and bags of experience in those games.
if you come across a guy who is willing to just get his chips and doesnt necassarily need a strong hand. Like his attitude may be who cares ive got a big enough stack to take a hit or ive already cashed I dont care if I go out here. This kind of player can still win tournaments or make final table at least.
Which brings me back to the saying. There is still hope for the recreational to get a big score in an mtt if they are risk adverse enough
 
steveiam

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I think any reasonable player is capable of winning a big tourney, you just need some run good at the right time and maintain good discipline and not be afraid to get your chip's in even when you think you might be behind.

If you want to profit consistently then that is a different story.
 
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Jay65

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Generally speaking, people hate aggression.

It's a big part of why fearless players can enjoy success wether they are good or not.
 
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spstevens

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Having "balls" is good but having "the nuts " is much better at any showdown.
 
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jj20002

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well, maybe the definition of a good player like the one you mentioned is ´Loose Aggressive´ or LAG,
 
Arjonius

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Any good player has a decent degree of fearlessness, but it's not binary with just two possibilities, fearless and fearful. Rather, it's a spectrum where different players fall at different points.

It's also situational, so playing well isn't just a matter of being equally fearless all the time, but of adapting up or down as a given situation warrants.
 
trekmaster

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I am always looking for this fearless player.The one throw big chips in every pot and bullying all the players.All to often they get comfortable thinking eveyone is bowing down to them but I wait for the hands to punish them.Aggresion is good in tournamet poker for sure however over aggression can be a players downfall.
 
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indahood193

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what do you class as 'skill' at poker? some player who floats the flop/ check raises the turn with air in the middle stages of the tournament but plays like a nit at a final table and is run over vs someone who plays fairly basic aggressive poker- steals from late position/ 3 bets correctly but doesn't do anything too fancy but plays 'fearless' when he/ she gets to a FT and puts a ton of pressure on their opponents who are trying to ladder/ wait for a big hand, then i would say the more skilled is the 2nd player. you don't win money during the middle stages, sure you can build a stack which is fairly important but you can always go on a rush at some point later on during the tourny and accumulate so being patient and applying aggression correctly by shoving/ 3 bet shoving etc is vitally important.

i feel that it is only at a final table where you see the true colours of a player, whether or not they have just got lucky to get there and what kind of style they are going to play. the top 3 spots are always where the money is at but i think aiming for number 1 is always the best strategy, because everyone is playing tighter you should push small edges for example last week i got to a final table, was only a $2.20r, was 5/9, some guy got ko'd so 8 left. folds round to me with like J 5s in the sb and 14 bb's. 90 odd % of nits who are trying to ladder would fold here, i shoved despite there being shorter stacks simply because my aim was not to get 5th or 6th it was to win so each bb was vital to me. he woke up with A 10 and AAx flopped me dead but that's kind of irrelevant. up until the past couple months i would have folded this hand at a final table, but then i asked myself why would i fold here if i would shove during middle/ early stages? if everyone else also plays tighter at a final table then why would it be good to also play tight, play even looser.

then just last Sunday, kind of an example of what i said about you can go on rush at any time during a tourny, i had like 8 bb's left and was probably last with 15 left in a $11 1r1a. i was card dead prior and found to good openings to steal light because the table was pretty loose and i had 0 fold equity with like 10 bb's to 3 bet shove. i go from 8 bb's to chip leader with maybe 40/ 50 bb's. at this point i put so much pressure on the medium stacks, 2 hands in a row i 3 bet their opens with 10 9o and then J 4s or something, just because they were in late position and doubt they would 4 bet shove Ax because 1st prize was $4k and i could ko them and call them off. they would likely look for a better spot. they both folded.

went on to FT 2/9 and when we got to 3 handed i was opening literally every half decent hand- 4 3o v tighter bb and defending almost 100% v guy to my right. my brother was watching me when i was playing (don't wanna sound cheesey or whatever, just trying to get back to and reference your question with an example) but he said something along the lines of, i was surprised how little you cared about the money. of course i did but you can't win tournies by wondering what the extra pay jump will buy you, all you should be focusing on is the hand you are in and how you can win it.

anyway hope i helped somewhat and i think my answer was a bit long but i love mtt's so had to give my opinion fully haha.
 
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TheNoobie

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To get to the point where you can become fearless, you need to play really tight early game. Since fearless early game will get you to nowhere, since most of it is coinflips and people call you with ridicilous hands. When you get passed this moment, you can go on fearless mode. It will help you steal pots and bring your stack to another level. You gotta be lucky aswell , not to hit anything on the flop, but to be lucky enough so your opponent doesnt have a real hand to call you. You cant compare expert players with online gaming, since when pros play live its more of a chess game, than it is poker. They calculate, they take big chances and sometimes they are rewarded, sometimes not. But you cant do that online, because you will play against a player, who might be novice and not even noticing that you could have that flush or straight. They just call. I think that being fearless also mean that you push all in with pocket aces, knowing that you will most likely win, but there is a chance that this guy calls you with 2 7o and hits 2 pairs. Now a player thats not fearless wouldnt have played it this way, because he isnt watching the odds to win, but the odds to lose. Everyone that cashes in a tournament has taken a few chances and got lucky ( to some point ) to get to there, so I think thats fearless.
 
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terryg642

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fearless play

Don't forget that one ingredient no one wants to talk about luck ,you get a series of monster hands at the right time especially texas holdem no limit .You've been rolling hot for a couple of hrs you got a huge stack,the second biggest stack has something like a pair of QQ'S and they hit a set,there ready to bet the house the move all in only to beat by four of kind,now you got a mountain are favored to win,I've seen it happen and it's why I'm not afraid of any big tourney .I just think you got get in the right way freeroll,satelite,satelite big cash.
 
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Quasimodo

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All's very true to a degree where high risk often leads to victory. I've been in a situation when playing a sat that 2nd place offered cash near the what the price of the tourney 1st place ticket and did my best to place 2nd only to fail. In one case when I failed for a 2nd place and got 1st turned to be a good thing as I went on and won $1,400+. Its sort of funny when some players angrily challenge you to play heads up in those instances where you outdrew them as heads up has more to do with luck above skill.
 
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