Hands versus Fossilman!

S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Hand #1

So Raymer was seated two seats to me left in a recent tournament. IMO he hadn’t been playing very well and had managed to lose about 60% of his stack in the first 10 minutes he was present at my table. This made him push all in from middle position with what turned out to be Q 3 off suit – he won, being called by As Js and beating a paired jack on a two spade board with a miracle queen of clubs on the river. So that’s how things went up to this point.

Raymer had about 15-18K and I had just over 30K. The blinds were 800 and 400, no ante.

Raymer is UTG and raises to 1700, everyone folds because Raymer raised (his table presence was amazing by the way) and I find As Ks in the Small Blind. I don’t think I ever flat here, so the two options remaining are fold and raise.

1. Fold - I’m out of position with Ace high against an UTG raise from an established poker professional.
2. Raise - I’m out of position with Ace high against someone I almost certainly have a skill disadvantage against.

If you choose option 1 I have to wonder why and if you’re cut out for poker? Option 2, on the other hand, presents some other challenges; like, how much should I raise?

I ended up raising all-in to which Raymer folded. Thoughts? Could I have got more chips or even busted him by playing differently? In the end I only got 1700 from him, but I don’t see many other options without adding in more risk, like a flop for example.

Hand #2

The very next hand I’m dealt the two red kings from the button and everyone folds to me.

1. Raise – with position and a premium.
2. Call the BB and re-evaluated based on pre-flop action.

I would prefer option 1 here, but the downside is that I may just win the blinds despite having the best position and hand. Option 2 presents some interesting options should any one of the blinds get frisky.

I choose option 2 and called the BB. Raymer raise to 2K after the SB completed the bet. Now this is exactly why I just called, hoping he would raise, but…

What now?

I called, and spiked a King on a safe looking board. Raymer bet 4.5K and I pushed all-in, to which he folded.

Could I have won more chips of even busted him by playing differently?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Hand 1, raise to an amount he cant flat but looks light, so like 2.2x his raise and snap off a shove.

Hand 2, raise is way better than calling, you should be raising quite wide on the button. as played i would flat his flop bet.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Hand 1, raise to an amount he cant flat but looks light, so like 2.2x his raise and snap off a shove.

Yeah, but did I really want to get ‘em all-in versus his range from UTG? I mean, since he folded I would say yes, but I didn’t know that before I made the move. Also, the all-in would have been half my stack?

So, let’s say I raise to 4K, two possible results happen – either the same thing occurs and I win 2100 – or he shoves forcing me to call all-in almost certainly behind. The all-in move at least yields some fold equity and puts him to the decision.

Although I will admit that the 4K looks attractive, I’m just leery of calling off half my stack with Ace high. Though if I commit to playing for his stack it doesn’t really matter how I get them in.

Yeah, I dunno – but I do kind of feel like I didn’t get the most value out of that hand.

Hand 2, raise is way better than calling, you should be raising quite wide on the button. as played i would flat his flop bet.

Normally, I completely agree, but these hands literally happened back-to-back. If I raise the button there he almost certainly folds and I win the blinds.

On this hand I feel like I got the most value I could have out of it – I’m just a little ticked off at myself since the whole reason I didn’t raise was to induce Raymers’ aggressive tendencies, out of position, and snap him off – but instead of snapping I called the aggression and got lucky by hitting a flop – what would I have done with an Ace high board?, LOL!
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
KK hand is pretty bad IMO. Raise the BTN of course. Flat flop and let him barrel off.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
KK hand is pretty bad IMO. Raise the BTN of course. Flat flop and let him barrel off.

I’m not saying that it is real good – I am in no way gloating about that hand, it felt just as bad as it reads!

That said, I think I won more chips as it happened than I would have with a button raise. Raymer was just attacking what he perceived as weakness – he didn’t have anything – any other way I play this earns less. That doesn’t make it correct, but; condonable?
 
W

waz666

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Total posts
115
Chips
0
Cool story, and neat to be playing with a poker celeb. While it's not the same, I was playing in the Bahamas about 5 years ago and Norm MacDonald the comedian was sat next to me. Unfortunately I was on my last day of vacation and could only hang for 20 minutes. FYI< He was nice but not chatty at all. He also played super tight, which in my opinion was surprising because he was sitting at a 5/10 table and he's a celeb, who I assume is somewhat rich.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Cool story, and neat to be playing with a poker celeb. While it's not the same, I was playing in the Bahamas about 5 years ago and Norm MacDonald the comedian was sat next to me. Unfortunately I was on my last day of vacation and could only hang for 20 minutes. FYI< He was nice but not chatty at all. He also played super tight, which in my opinion was surprising because he was sitting at a 5/10 table and he's a celeb, who I assume is somewhat rich.

Yeah, but that’s what so cool about poker – anyone can play and everyone can lose! It’s not about money with those guys, rather pride and ego!

Another favorite story of Mike Caro’s is trying to goat Bill Gates into playing the 1K/2K game when he was at the 5/10 table. As Mike explains, to Bill it didn’t matter, he was already playing the 1K/2K game because both stakes were meaningless to him and he wouldn’t want to damage the pride or ego!
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
Cool story btw!

I disagree with the thought process behind hand 1. Your options are flat or raise...folding aks there, almost regardless who raises utg (almost), is way too nitty. Yes he has an edge on you, but...be realistic-there's only so much room for outplaying AKs with blinds this high, stacks this small. If you hit or flop draw, get it in and feel good vs his range.

Hand 2..why are we raising flop? To get his (obviously) worse hands out? Your raise looks retardedly strong..and you're pretty sure he doesn't have a king (you can acct for 3 of them)? If you know he's firing w air, check/call every street and you'll get much more out of him. He's rarely catching up to your set of kings- give him every opportunity to improve his hand or try to push you off yours.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Yeah, but did I really want to get ‘em all-in versus his range from UTG? I mean, since he folded I would say yes, but I didn’t know that before I made the move. Also, the all-in would have been half my stack?

So, let’s say I raise to 4K, two possible results happen – either the same thing occurs and I win 2100 – or he shoves forcing me to call all-in almost certainly behind. The all-in move at least yields some fold equity and puts him to the decision.

Although I will admit that the 4K looks attractive, I’m just leery of calling off half my stack with Ace high. Though if I commit to playing for his stack it doesn’t really matter how I get them in.

Yeah, I dunno – but I do kind of feel like I didn’t get the most value out of that hand.

at 22-24bb effective i love getting AK in v an active openers 4bet range even UTG, he can cetainly 4bet jam worse expecting you to fold

its not A high! AK dominates a substantial number of hands and flips v most,

when i raise im never ever contemplating folding

Normally, I completely agree, but these hands literally happened back-to-back. If I raise the button there he almost certainly folds and I win the blinds.

On this hand I feel like I got the most value I could have out of it – I’m just a little ticked off at myself since the whole reason I didn’t raise was to induce Raymers’ aggressive tendencies, out of position, and snap him off – but instead of snapping I called the aggression and got lucky by hitting a flop – what would I have done with an Ace high board?, LOL!

raising button looks more bluffy given last hand not less, he should expect you to r/f a substantial number of hands from the button, so raise pre, frankly limp/call check/shove is a redic strong line and you definitely lost value
 
ovitoo

ovitoo

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Total posts
1,980
Awards
1
US
Chips
75
I’m not saying that it is real good – I am in no way gloating about that hand, it felt just as bad as it reads!

That said, I think I won more chips as it happened than I would have with a button raise. Raymer was just attacking what he perceived as weakness – he didn’t have anything – any other way I play this earns less. That doesn’t make it correct, but; condonable?
why would you ship the flop if he is constantly barreling. If he is playing the way you've described and you decide for some reason to flat the blinds why end your slow play by shipping a monster flop? definitely earned less with this play
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Cool story btw!

I disagree with the thought process behind hand 1. Your options are flat or raise...folding aks there, almost regardless who raises utg (almost), is way too nitty. Yes he has an edge on you, but...be realistic-there's only so much room for outplaying AKs with blinds this high, stacks this small. If you hit or flop draw, get it in and feel good vs his range.

Hand 2..why are we raising flop? To get his (obviously) worse hands out? Your raise looks retardedly strong..and you're pretty sure he doesn't have a king (you can acct for 3 of them)? If you know he's firing w air, check/call every street and you'll get much more out of him. He's rarely catching up to your set of kings- give him every opportunity to improve his hand or try to push you off yours.

#1 Well obviously I’m not considering folding too long – but I did consider it! The way he was playing I thought that his chips were going in; I really did, and I had to think the AK over.

#2 The flop raise was my attempt at seeming super week, not super strong. The board was very meek, no draws at all – either way I play that I don’t think I get any more out of him and I thought that by shoving the flop it would seem weak (like I don’t want you to get there Greg) and he might just call. Plus I don’t have any idea what he had, and his stack was so short he wouldn’t have been trying to push me off the hand.

But I have no doubt I didn’t play either hand to max value. He just screwed everything up; normally I know exactly what to do in these situations, but here, not so much. The constant thought of “he knows something I don’t” is running through my head.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
Sounds like you idolize fossilman a bit because from what you stated he sounds rubbish. Then again, you played the 2nd hand awfully :(

Hand 1 is an easy 3bet/call with AKs. Make it like 3.5k. Cbet most flops apart from stuff like 789 no spades.

Hand 2 is an easy raise pre. As played, flat flop and let him barrel.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
How long had he been at your table before these hands came up, what had he seen you do, what type of impression was he likely to have of you and your style, and how strong was his read likely to be?

Hand 1, I think I prefer the Kill Phil-like approach of inflating the pot against a better player when I'm probably ahead. I'd consider making it around 5k, and would be ready to call if he shoves. Part of why I rather like this bet size is that it's kind of awkward for him. If he calls, he has put about 1/3 of his chips in play in position but without the initiative, and he's down to a pot-sized stack, which limits his options, especially if he expects you to c-bet.

Hand 2, I'm not seeing much reason not to make the straightforward play of a normal-sized opening bet on the button.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
How long had he been at your table before these hands came up, what had he seen you do, what type of impression was he likely to have of you and your style, and how strong was his read likely to be?

I think he’s seen players like me before. :) He did fold and said “I think your pair is higher than mine.” Which in my opinion is total BS because:

1. He’s wrong about my hand – and I think he knew it.
2. There’s no way he had a pair there, especially 10 10 or better like he should have from UTG. He just shipped it with Q 3 off a few hands prior – he would have called with 77 or better.

That’s just my opinion of course, but it is based on how things were going.

Hand 1, I think I prefer the Kill Phil-like approach of inflating the pot against a better player when I'm probably ahead. I'd consider making it around 5k, and would be ready to call if he shoves. Part of why I rather like this bet size is that it's kind of awkward for him. If he calls, he has put about 1/3 of his chips in play in position but without the initiative, and he's down to a pot-sized stack, which limits his options, especially if he expects you to c-bet.

Yeah but that’s exactly my dilemma. If I’m going to call his whole stack, why raise anything other than all-in? If I raise to 5K, or 4K, there are only two options:

1. I call his all-in.
2. I win exactly the same as I did when he folds.

I just don’t see a whole lot of sense to a raise knowing I am going to call all-in. He’s got to know he doesn’t have fold equity, so if he shoves I can safely assume that I am beat – not that I don’t have a fighting chance versus his range, but calling all-in behind, for what amounts to 50% of my stack, doesn’t seem like too attractive of an option to me.

On the flip side, if he’s in that super premium range he’s going to call anyway!

Also, I feel like I am at a skill disadvantage here and I’m out of position. It may not be the most efficient way to play that hand but I really don’t have a problem with how I played it. Hand #2 on the other hand…

Hand 2, I'm not seeing much reason not to make the straightforward play of a normal-sized opening bet on the button.

Yeah, I hate how I played that one!
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
I wouldn't automatically assume anyone is telling me what they actually think when we're still both continuing to play at the same table.

Do you believe his shove range when you make it 5K is smaller, larger or pretty much the same as his call range when you shove?

He only knows he has no fold equity if he assumes you know what you're doing in this situation, which isn't part of why I asked what he has seen of your game.

If you assume he does think you've priced yourself in to call his shove, then it seems like he'll only shove with pretty much the same range with which he'd call your shove, which would mean you gain little if any fold equity by shoving.

Otoh, if he thinks he can fold you out, he might shove a somewhat wider range. If so, the most likely added hands are more pairs and dominated aces. I'm willing to play for his stack anyway, so I want to give him the chance to push with this wider range.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
I wouldn't automatically assume anyone is telling me what they actually think when we're still both continuing to play at the same table.

Do you believe his shove range when you make it 5K is smaller, larger or pretty much the same as his call range when you shove?

He only knows he has no fold equity if he assumes you know what you're doing in this situation, which isn't part of why I asked what he has seen of your game.

If you assume he does think you've priced yourself in to call his shove, then it seems like he'll only shove with pretty much the same range with which he'd call your shove, which would mean you gain little if any fold equity by shoving.

Otoh, if he thinks he can fold you out, he might shove a somewhat wider range. If so, the most likely added hands are more pairs and dominated aces. I'm willing to play for his stack anyway, so I want to give him the chance to push with this wider range.

Don’t get me wrong I can definitely see some logic to this line of thinking.

He hasn’t been at my table very long and while he was there I hadn’t yet played a hand. That being said, I would like to think he respected me enough to know the he doesn’t have fold equity.

And you’re right, if I make it 5K and he shoves, I have to call. The only problem I have is that such a call would amount to 50% of my stack and I am now dependent on a flop; even if he is shoving wide. Then again the downside to how I played is that I don’t win very much.

Now if had a larger stack, say 75K-95K, a 4K-5K raise is a no brainier, but with my stack I feel I won as much as I could and took as little risk as possible – of course I’ll never know, the flop could have been Js Qs 10s for all I know, but what if it wasn’t?
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
I'm not trying to suggest shoving was awful or even bad but rather that I think raising to 5k or so might be better. If the chance he'll widen his shoving range even a little because he thinks you may not know you have to call is greater than 0, it's to my advantage because I already know I'm going to call. And if said chance is 0, it doesn't seem disadvantageous. So compared to shoving, the raise to 5k seems like a no-lose, might gain a bit.
 
C

CANDYMAN1414

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Total posts
143
Chips
0
Hand #1 I would have played the same way, Hand #2 I would have checked hoping he would raise on the turn. Even if an ace hit the board, with him not raising preflop I dont put him on an ace.
But how'd you end up doing overall?
 
Loonbat

Loonbat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Total posts
386
Chips
0
Sounds like you idolize fossilman a bit because from what you stated he sounds rubbish. Then again, you played the 2nd hand awfully :(

Hand 1 is an easy 3bet/call with AKs. Make it like 3.5k. Cbet most flops apart from stuff like 789 no spades.

Hand 2 is an easy raise pre. As played, flat flop and let him barrel.
The same line as most are advocating, I agree 100%. The 2nd hand flop raise is over-the-top strong and he was def shutting down. I would certainly raise it pre, though. It is much easier to make this raise given you raised the last hand ... you'll be given less credit, especially with the button.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
I'm not trying to suggest shoving was awful or even bad but rather that I think raising to 5k or so might be better. If the chance he'll widen his shoving range even a little because he thinks you may not know you have to call is greater than 0, it's to my advantage because I already know I'm going to call. And if said chance is 0, it doesn't seem disadvantageous. So compared to shoving, the raise to 5k seems like a no-lose, might gain a bit.

Yep…that pretty much sums it up.

In this hand though I don’t think he was shoving, calling, or anything else pending a flop. Thinking back on it, he was just seeing what he could get away with, hence the reason he folded while making a pocket pair speech!

The problem I have with shoving, especially from the SB, is that everyone at the table knows I have one of three hands and if they had to bet on it, they would pick AK. So I was just looking for some other options. In the end I do wish I had just raised, instead of a playing with Raymer story I could of had a busting Raymer story – and the awful KK hand would have never been played; oh well, that’s all in hindsight anyway.
 
tonybill76

tonybill76

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Total posts
18
Chips
0
Cool story, and neat to be playing with a poker celeb. While it's not the same, I was playing in the Bahamas about 5 years ago and Norm MacDonald the comedian was sat next to me. Unfortunately I was on my last day of vacation and could only hang for 20 minutes. FYI< He was nice but not chatty at all. He also played super tight, which in my opinion was surprising because he was sitting at a 5/10 table and he's a celeb, who I assume is somewhat rich.
Norm is awesome, however even though he still can be considered a "celebrity" i've heard in interviews that he's actually gone busto at least twice since he admits that he pretty much has a gambling addiction. Probably why he was playing so tight.....most likely already lost a bit of money.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top