Hand equity adjustments for tourny's

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Gerb

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Hand equity is pretty straight forward in cash games; if you have 40% equity, call when you have better than 40% pot odds, fold when you don't. But in tournaments, there is obviously an adjustment since you can't just reload if you get felted. You're not likely to take a 41% equity spot with 40% pot odds for your whole stack early in a tourny, I wouldn't think, but in cash games you should take this every time (adjusting for rake, etc).

What type of adjustments are standard? Are there any general rules to follow with respect to the stage in the tournament, etc? Does anyone know of a good resource to read to get a handle on this?
Thanks.
 
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Gerb

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Ah come on, don't be like that. Give me something!
 
Acesinthebig

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It depends what you feel comfortable with. It's a little bit of a confusing question that's why I think you are not getting much feed back. I think 55% equity is fine in tournaments.
 
dj11

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Don't be in a rush for replies. You've opened a can of worms.

I will guess that the answer ultimately comes down to survival. This concept in tourneys is paramount, while in ring it has little effect.

So, we will be aiming to put a value on 'survival', and that value will then effect every decision including hand equity questions.

Also questions of tourney structure come into play. Ex; re-entry or rebuy? Since most tourneys these days include one or the other, surviving doesn't come into play until we have reached our re-buy limit, or LR has ended.
 
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Gerb

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I'll try to rephrase. In a cash game, you should call any bet when your equity is greater than your pot odds. For example, if you have 40% equity and it will cost $25 to call a pot of $75, then you should call since you have 4:1 pot odds (25%), and your equity is more than this. How does this strategy change in tournaments, if at all?
 
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Gerb

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Don't be in a rush for replies. You've opened a can of worms.



I will guess that the answer ultimately comes down to survival. This concept in tourneys is paramount, while in ring it has little effect.



So, we will be aiming to put a value on 'survival', and that value will then effect every decision including hand equity questions.



Also questions of tourney structure come into play. Ex; re-entry or rebuy? Since most tourneys these days include one or the other, surviving doesn't come into play until we have reached our re-buy limit, or LR has ended.



Thanks, that's exactly what i was going for. I'd imagine this is an question with a million different answers. I suppose you have to take into account the strength of the other players and things like that too.
 
dj11

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Thanks, that's exactly what i was going for. I'd imagine this is an question with a million different answers. I suppose you have to take into account the strength of the other players and things like that too.

Yeah, but for the most part you won't have numbers on most of the players unless you are a reg in particular tourneys. Also, if you have ring game stats on a player in a tourney, you can't be certain they make the adjustments to tourney's. Only way to do that is to sit and watch.

If there is a particular tourney that spawned your question, please show the structure.
 
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Gerb

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Yeah, but for the most part you won't have numbers on most of the players unless you are a reg in particular tourneys. Also, if you have ring game stats on a player in a tourney, you can't be certain they make the adjustments to tourney's. Only way to do that is to sit and watch.

If there is a particular tourney that spawned your question, please show the structure.

No specific tourney, just asking in general, but I play micro stakes mtt's, I like the Bigs on PS with buy in's under $5, which have no rebuys and are fairly deep stacked compared to other micro's. I have found that there is generally enough crazyness going on in the first hour or two that I can fold some spots even though I am getting pot odds to call, and still take advantage of loose/crazy play later to put myself in ok position. I'm not saying I always pass up spots, and it's usually more of a concern when my whole stack would be on the line. I'll stick to the pot odds strategy if I'm only calling for a small portion of my stack.

Just off the top of my head as an example, let's say you get into a pot early on and you flop a nut flush draw and figure the other guy has you beat otherwise. So you've got 35% equity. If he jams, how good of pot odds would you need to call? I'd probably fold even with 30% pot odds, but call with 25%. Just from thinking about it quickly, I feel like I would pass up a drawing spot like this unless I was getting 8-10% better pot odds than my equity. Maybe that's too tight, what do you think?
 
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Also, I just found a thread on here about tournaments and expected value which was very in depth with some well thought out back and forth arguments that are similar to the ideas I was asking about. It was very helpful, and much more articulate than what I could come up with.
 
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I think it depends on what part of the tournament you are in. Early on when you are far away from the money it probably makes sense to play similar to a cash game because to make the money the sample size will be large enough where it behooves you. On the other hand closer to the money you may be looking more at survival and leveling.
 
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The problem with tournaments is a multitude of vary factors. What stage of the tournament are you in and whats your play style and stack size?

More often than not, to win a tournament you will have to win a chunk of your chips from multiple all-in situations where you have at best 55% equity.


Just off the top of my head as an example, let's say you get into a pot early on and you flop a nut flush draw and figure the other guy has you beat otherwise. So you've got 35% equity. If he jams, how good of pot odds would you need to call? I'd probably fold even with 30% pot odds, but call with 25%. Just from thinking about it quickly, I feel like I would pass up a drawing spot like this unless I was getting 8-10% better pot odds than my equity. Maybe that's too tight, what do you think?

So lets say -You have AsKs preflop and open, villain 3bets, you 4bet, villain calls.

Flop comes 10s 2s 6d you check, he jams and its about pot.

I would say you have to call. Why? Well in general because of concepts i tried to articulate in this thread,(i think this ties into the term "realizing equity") but also,

A) It is early in the tournament, you might be able to re-enter and you've essentially crippled yourself if you fold.
B) This kind of play ties into high risk high reward/get a monster stack early and make deep runs or bust early.

I think lots of people advocate lots of different strategies. However tournament poker generally ignores the direct mathematical answers of pot odds. The more important questions are, how much of my stack am i going to have to risk, how much bigger can I grow my stack, what are the ICM implications of my play.

What I'm starting to believe is that you cant go into a tournament and play to a defined game plan. (I'm going to play rock tight poker early, loosen up and steal/re steal middle, and go TAG late). There is such a high amount of variance in tournament poker, I'm inclined to believe there isn't a single GTO strategy. Strategies that work depend on the risk/reward path you are trying to take combined with the play style of your opponents.
 
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you've essentially crippled yourself if you fold.

All good points. I guess to get into this situation you'd have had to put in a decent chunk of change to begin with.
 
dj11

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All good points. I guess to get into this situation you'd have had to put in a decent chunk of change to begin with.

Since I'm in the US and can't play real tourney's at stars, I can only suggest this is still the case;

A $5 tourney pretty much plays the same as a $50 tourney. HOWEVER, your willingness to lose that buy-in is not the same. And that is what will affect your decisions.

a $5 STT SnG does NOT play the same as a $50 SnG. The $50 game will attract a lot of folks who get the notion they can bully the cheap players. Someone decent at the $5 SnG's can take their game to the $50 level with better success than than vica versa.

I have played some big buy-in games, and this has held true for me thru 12 years.

If No Rebuys, and no re-entry then about 1/2 the players will bust per hour. This too has held true for those 12 years. So if you want the chance to go deep, you have to have 6 hours free. If re-buys or re-entries, then that same formula tends to hold true from the moment the later registration ends.

And most of all you still can't win a tourney in the first hour. Exceptions are the Jackpot or spin and go games.
 
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ph_il

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Also, I just found a thread on here about tournaments and expected value which was very in depth with some well thought out back and forth arguments that are similar to the ideas I was asking about. It was very helpful, and much more articulate than what I could come up with.
Can you link the thread?
 
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