Guide lines to starting hand requirements and payout structure

pat3392 · Aug 27, 2010

I'm thinking of learning how to play multi-table SnG and start going to the live poker tournaments in my area. The problem is though, they have payout structures that I haven't developed a strategy for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the payout structure dictates the optimal strategy more than anything else, well except the type of opponents.

I have experience in 2 different formats:

STT SnG, 33% is paid. I basically play very tight/nitty since with the aid of a few late pushes, I can basically fold my way to the money

MTT, 10% is paid. I basically am fairly aggressive and go out of my way to get chips, will raise suited connectors and stuff like KJ early/mid position. Because of the nature of the turbo games, I turn into a maniac late game since there are good odds on every hand and it's amazing how nitty/tight/scared some people can be.

How should I play in games that have payout structures of let's say 20%? Is there any formulaic(incorrect usage of word?) approach to working out how tight/loose one should play before sitting at a table, based on the payout structure?

In case this question is a little difficult to answer, how should one play the 45 man SnG on pokerstars? Top 16% get paid

EDIT: And another format I'm curios about, the 10 person STT, top %30 are paid. How different should the strategy be from the 9 person STT?

medeiros13 · Aug 27, 2010

I think its very difficult to get a "standard" answer to your question. A lot of how you play in tournaments IMO depends on your stack, the playing style of your opponents, where you are in the tournament, and what playstyle you're comforatable with. My typical answer would be tight early (opposite of most advice I'm familiar with), loose in the middle, then see where you are...if in decent shape, I tighten up again. If not, I'm following the Harrington on Hold'em philosophy and shoving with 10X BB's left to try and chip up. I play a tag game myself but there are times where my reputation and playstyle of opponents have actually made me LAG and allowed me to stack up chips. Its a style that I'm truthfully still getting more comfortable with. This (for me) is where watching poker on TV helps. I recall many hands where the announcers talk about having the guts to fire a 3rd bullet to try and steal on the river....and then disguising bluffs as value bets and try to mix those things into my LAG play. Wow, that's a lot of rambling...I hope that something in there may help you out

jolubman · Aug 27, 2010

I've never thought of playing poker accorning to the payout structure. Thanks for making me aware.

dillingerdis · Aug 27, 2010

I pretty much play exactly how medeiros13 is describing and can attest to how well it works. Its not a sure bet every time obviously but in the long run you will be surprised if you track your play. I have noticed that playing the early bit tight usually will make people play even looser against you (in the lower stakes) i guess because they just want to bust you out with a garbage hand. These are the things that will let you finish higher stacked to allow for looser play and dominating in the late stages.

dwolfg · Aug 27, 2010

As is with everything in poker, it depends. How my opponents are playing is the top deciding factor in how I play. If my table is filled with nits, I will play a wide range. If it is a table of maniacs and calling stations I will tighten up and wait for spots where I can be almost certain I have best hand.

Mr Whatever · Aug 28, 2010

id say play whatever style consistently gets u into the money, regardless of the format of the tourn whether winner take all or top 10%.

for ur wanting to play live, id pay particular attention to the playing styles of ur opponents and adjust more to them and their styles rather than the pay out format.

WiZZiM · Aug 28, 2010

pat3392 said:
I'm thinking of learning how to play multi-table SnG and start going to the live poker tournaments in my area. The problem is though, they have payout structures that I haven't developed a strategy for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the payout structure dictates the optimal strategy more than anything else, well except the type of opponents.

I havent played much in the way of live tournaments, but usually the blind level increases and antes will dictate how you should be playing yes.
I have experience in 2 different formats:

STT SnG, 33% is paid. I basically play very tight/nitty since with the aid of a few late pushes, I can basically fold my way to the money
Seems pretty decent to me, but remember we can be quite a bit more aggressive than you think when you play live tourneys compared to online. but a basic STT strat should work here, just keep in mind how quickly the blind levels go, and who you can shove on and what not.
MTT, 10% is paid. I basically am fairly aggressive and go out of my way to get chips, will raise suited connectors and stuff like KJ early/mid position. Because of the nature of the turbo games, I turn into a maniac late game since there are good odds on every hand and it's amazing how nitty/tight/scared some people can be.Again, seems like a decent strat. most of the live tourneys i've played have really quick rising blind levels, but yeah, anything overly aggressive with lots of shoving should be close to optimal.

How should I play in games that have payout structures of let's say 20%? Is there any formulaic(incorrect usage of word?) approach to working out how tight/loose one should play before sitting at a table, based on the payout structure?
I generally use common sense to try and work out how i try to approach the game. There are obviously mathematic solutions, but i've never been a huge one to sit there and try to work out why i should play a certain way. I try to look at the structure, If its heavily weighted towards the top places, then i'll be playing more aggressively. If it's a turbo, i'll be tight/late aggression, if the blind levels start of with deep stacks i'll adjust and play deeper stacked poker. It's kind of hard to explain, hopefully someone can expand on my babbling here.
In case this question is a little difficult to answer, how should one play the 45 man SnG on PokerStars? Top 16% get paid
Poker orifice should be more of a help on this subject. But you've seen me play the 9 man STT, and basically i just adjust my strat slightly. I'll loosen up in the earlier blind levels slightly, then basically i feel it's a bit of a sin to get near the bubble as a shortstack, so as the blinds increase i'll look to resteal and shove a lot trying to accumulate a stack. But yeah i think PO plays these a lot, so you might want to get him to help you there. I've only played 100 of them so i don't have much exp.

EDIT: And another format I'm curios about, the 10 person STT, top %30 are paid. How different should the strategy be from the 9 person STT?Your strat is exactly the same, i mix a lot of 9 and 10 man STT. Sure there's a little bit more money in the prize pool, but there's also one more spot you can finish in. Anyways, like i mention, the strat is exactly the same, and even the 18 man MT SNG's are pretty much the same as 9 man STT, with a few little adjustments.

Without going into too much detail. I suggest sticking to one format and trying to master it. I've noticed you have been trying to play mixed MTT and STT, but as you probably know, they require differant skill sets and require differant strategy. So i'd suggest trying to find the ideal game for your life/schedule and stick to it. So if your going to decide to play MTT stick to it and try to master the game.

WiZZiM · Aug 28, 2010

dwolfg said:
As is with everything in poker, it depends. How my opponents are playing is the top deciding factor in how I play. If my table is filled with nits, I will play a wide range. If it is a table of maniacs and calling stations I will tighten up and wait for spots where I can be almost certain I have best hand.

It may be a deciding factor. Adjusting to opponants is only one part of of the tournament gumbo that makes you succesful. It's no use being able to adjust to oppoants when you are playing too loose in certain parts of the tournament or whatever the case may be. So yeah, the structure will dictate a lot to how you will play, and it shouldnt be discarded

santa fe slim · Aug 28, 2010

I would consider payout structure in whether I play a particular tourney or not but it is not much of a factor in how to play. What dictates style of play is other factors; opponents style, stack size, blind increases etc. So tourney structure, yes, in terms of blinds # of opponents etc. but payout structure not a major factor in how you play, imho. Just play to win Baby!

WiZZiM · Aug 28, 2010

santa fe slim said:
I would consider payout structure in whether I play a particular tourney or not but it is not much of a factor in how to play. What dictates style of play is other factors; opponents style, stack size, blind increases etc. So tourney structure, yes, in terms of blinds # of opponents etc. but payout structure not a major factor in how you play, imho. Just play to win Baby!

Think about this, if you have a 10 man tournament and 5 people place, all doubling their tournament buy in do you think it would be wise to play tight or loose?

Now lets say that we have a 90 man tournament, where only 9 places are paid, do you think it's wise to play looser or tighter?

They may be extreme examples but you get my point. So yeah it may only be a small factor, but it's still there. In some cases the tourney payouts can dictate how aggressively you want to play, or if it's more worthwhile staying tight and survival.

gopnik885 · Aug 28, 2010

I think the structure of the payment is mostly suppose to suggest you if you should or shouldn't play this game, by that I mean that sometimes I feel that I can hit the ITM when 10% get paid and sometimes I prefer to play less risky game where 30% get paid, I must say that in my opinion players will play more tight game when there are 30% pay out (in MTT), because it's looks to them that there is a easy way to get in the money, so I prefer to play more lose game in those and tight game when 10% get paid because everyone is trying to double up to get in the money, this is just my thoughts about it.

dwolfg · Aug 28, 2010

WiZZiM said:
It may be a deciding factor. Adjusting to opponants is only one part of of the tournament gumbo that makes you succesful. It's no use being able to adjust to oppoants when you are playing too loose in certain parts of the tournament or whatever the case may be. So yeah, the structure will dictate a lot to how you will play, and it shouldnt be discarded

I said top factor, not only factor. I never said to discard the structure. Whether it is a deep stack slow structure or turbo, 33% of field paid or winner take all, bottom line is you have to beat your opponents in any structure of blind/payout.

dwolfg · Aug 28, 2010

WiZZiM said:
Think about this, if you have a 10 man tournament and 5 people place, all doubling their tournament buy in do you think it would be wise to play tight or loose?

Now lets say that we have a 90 man tournament, where only 9 places are paid, do you think it's wise to play looser or tighter?

They may be extreme examples but you get my point. So yeah it may only be a small factor, but it's still there. In some cases the tourney payouts can dictate how aggressively you want to play, or if it's more worthwhile staying tight and survival.

If you have a 10 man tourney DoN where the entire table is playing very nitty, it would +ev to employ a looser small ball strategy. Again adjusting to your opponents. Same with the 90 man if its a table of nits, keep on chipping away. Also playing loose, small ball and playing to survive aren't mutually exclusive.

WiZZiM · Aug 29, 2010

Small ball with stacks under 75bb is retarded...

dwolfg · Aug 29, 2010

WiZZiM said:
Small ball with stacks under 75bb is retarded...

1. Please don't use the word 'retarded' in such a negative connotation. It is offensive.

2. Why is taking small risks in order to steal blinds and grow your stack bad?

WiZZiM · Aug 29, 2010

1. ok, sorry.

2.Without going into too much detail. The idea behind small ball is to develop an image of a maniac. Lots of small preflop raising and playing loads of small pots. But when you play most types of SNG's, especially the DON's we are talking about, you start out with 75bb stacks, now perhaps in the first level you can adopt a small ball type strat. But anything past that will be silly. When your working with shallow stacks, your implied odds value drops, so playing marginal implied odds hands like 87s and such becomes less profitable, to the point of not being profitable at all.

So in a DON, if your playing lots of hands early. It may net you a few chips, but on the flipside, you can also spew off a lot of chips. Especaially as small ball relies on very solid postflop play. so spewing chips early in a SNG format like DON can be hugely detrimental, as the chips you lose early can cost you fold equity when you make the tougher ICM based decisions later on in the SNG. Not to mention, the looser you are early on, the wider people will call you later on in the SNG, which is exactly the opposite of what we want. Add to that if we play more hands early on it will actually restrict the amount of multitabling we can do, which affects our $$/hour, which is really what matters, no matter what anyone says.

There are heaps of points i've missed, but i hope that covers most of it. Feel free to correct me if you disagree with any of it.

dwolfg · Aug 29, 2010

I am only talking about loosening up in early in a sng only when it is obvious your table is full of nits. The kind of table that is willing to let the blinds chip away at their stack to next to nothing while waiting for aa kk qq or ak.

dwolfg · Aug 29, 2010

I also don't multitable that often.

pat3392 · Aug 29, 2010

Mr Whatever said:
id say play whatever style consistently gets u into the money, regardless of the format of the tourn whether winner take all or top 10%.

for ur wanting to play live, id pay particular attention to the playing styles of ur opponents and adjust more to them and their styles rather than the pay out format.

So I should play my standard online MTT play at this local live venue, even though the bubble payout is worthless? Of course adjusting to my opponents is crucial, but when I sit down at a table I, and I believe everyone, has a plan of how they are going to play. For example, the other night I told myself that I'm going to play a lot more aggressive and started raising stuff like K8 over limps(I had good reasons for this and not interested in discussing this strategy. Basically some players limp all sorts of crap and it's ahead of their range.) This is a high variance style which would not be good for a payout structure of let's say %40, but at this particular venue it was 5% and there was a big bounty on one player. My SnG play that gets me in the money is far from optimal here.

WiZZiM said:
Without going into too much detail. I suggest sticking to one format and trying to master it. I've noticed you have been trying to play mixed MTT and STT, but as you probably know, they require differant skill sets and require differant strategy. So i'd suggest trying to find the ideal game for your life/schedule and stick to it. So if your going to decide to play MTT stick to it and try to master the game.

I see the logic in this but it's easier said than done. I prefer MTT by far but the 180 person SnG/MTT don't load up over in Australia

So I'd be forced to play the big tournaments, which my bank roll can't support and would be rather inconvenient having to play at set times instead at my leisure. I'm, perhaps foolishly, am starting to learn how to play cash games as well so that I can start playing regularly at the casinos and a get into the underground home game circuit, bad players and no rake!!

I've been told that the beginning stages of a MTT is like a cash game and the final stage is basically a STT so it's still good experience either way. But you do have a valid point

WiZZiM said:
Think about this, if you have a 10 man tournament and 5 people place, all doubling their tournament buy in do you think it would be wise to play tight or loose?

Now lets say that we have a 90 man tournament, where only 9 places are paid, do you think it's wise to play looser or tighter?

They may be extreme examples but you get my point. So yeah it may only be a small factor, but it's still there. In some cases the tourney payouts can dictate how aggressively you want to play, or if it's more worthwhile staying tight and survival.

+1

Another extreme format that I've heard of is a 100 player tournament with only 1st being paid. There would be no such thing as, "waiting for a better spot" and conservative play would be fishy play since survival is not that useful, it's all about pot odds not ICM.

gopnik885 said:
I think the structure of the payment is mostly suppose to suggest you if you should or shouldn't play this game, by that I mean that sometimes I feel that I can hit the ITM when 10% get paid and sometimes I prefer to play less risky game where 30% get paid, I must say that in my opinion players will play more tight game when there are 30% pay out (in MTT), because it's looks to them that there is a easy way to get in the money, so I prefer to play more lose game in those and tight game when 10% get paid because everyone is trying to double up to get in the money, this is just my thoughts about it.

MTT definitely has more variance but I consider this a good thing in a way; the more variance the worse the players will be, at least it seems that is how it would be.

That does make a lot of sense

dwolfg said:
I said top factor, not only factor. I never said to discard the structure. Whether it is a deep stack slow structure or turbo, 33% of field paid or winner take all, bottom line is you have to beat your opponents in any structure of blind/payout.

Not necessarily, the name of the game is to make money, not "beat your opponents"

dwolfg said:
I am only talking about loosening up in early in a sng only when it is obvious your table is full of nits. The kind of table that is willing to let the blinds chip away at their stack to next to nothing while waiting for aa kk qq or ak.

Of course if there are those sort of players present then loose play is optimal under almost all situations. However, you do seem to be disregarding the payout structure as a factor. I guess that's not so bad online because there seems to be a standard for how they are set up but with live games there is no such thing.

So yes, on the extremes loose/tight play is optimal but poker is not so clear cut and one must consider all factors, not just opponent tendency's.

dwolfg · Aug 30, 2010

pat3392 said:
So I should play my standard online MTT play at this local live venue, even though the bubble payout is worthless? Of course adjusting to my opponents is crucial, but when I sit down at a table I, and I believe everyone, has a plan of how they are going to play. For example, the other night I told myself that I'm going to play a lot more aggressive and started raising stuff like K8 over limps(I had good reasons for this and not interested in discussing this strategy. Basically some players limp all sorts of crap and it's ahead of their range.) This is a high variance style which would not be good for a payout structure of let's say %40, but at this particular venue it was 5% and there was a big bounty on one player. My SnG play that gets me in the money is far from optimal here.

I see the logic in this but it's easier said than done. I prefer MTT by far but the 180 person SnG/MTT don't load up over in Australia So I'd be forced to play the big tournaments, which my bank roll can't support and would be rather inconvenient having to play at set times instead at my leisure. I'm, perhaps foolishly, am starting to learn how to play cash games as well so that I can start playing regularly at the casinos and a get into the underground home game circuit, bad players and no rake!!

I've been told that the beginning stages of a MTT is like a cash game and the final stage is basically a STT so it's still good experience either way. But you do have a valid point

+1

Another extreme format that I've heard of is a 100 player tournament with only 1st being paid. There would be no such thing as, "waiting for a better spot" and conservative play would be fishy play since survival is not that useful, it's all about pot odds not ICM.

MTT definitely has more variance but I consider this a good thing in a way; the more variance the worse the players will be, at least it seems that is how it would be.

That does make a lot of sense

Not necessarily, the name of the game is to make money, not "beat your opponents"

Of course if there are those sort of players present then loose play is optimal under almost all situations. However, you do seem to be disregarding the payout structure as a factor. I guess that's not so bad online because there seems to be a standard for how they are set up but with live games there is no such thing.

So yes, on the extremes loose/tight play is optimal but poker is not so clear cut and one must consider all factors, not just opponent tendency's.

If you would reread my posts, I never once said that adjusting to opponents is the only factor, I said it was the top factor. How do you plan on 'making money' without outplaying and beating your opponents?

pat3392 · Aug 30, 2010

dwolfg said:
If you would reread my posts, I never once said that adjusting to opponents is the only factor, I said it was the top factor. How do you plan on 'making money' without outplaying and beating your opponents?

Why state the obvious when that has nothing to do with the thread I started

Guide lines to starting hand requirements and payout structure

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