Group Stake's chatter box Thread

[BluffMeAllIn]

Since its been mentioned in the current V group discussion thread re looking at picking some topics to discuss to further our knowledge and strategy and help each other improve our games through the group stake's I figured I'd throw up this thread.

Initially perhaps we could throw a bunch of various topics out there that we might like to discuss and analyze, or specific game vairent strategies etc. It will be an amalgamation of sorts for us. Even if topics etc might have already been discussed or great threads already exist we could always link them in for those who may have missed them. I still find gems on the forum from searching even though I have groomed through most everything that I could.

So far topic proposed has been ICM, we know there are some tools for it SNGWiz, ICMIZER etc. Some push/fold chart links perhaps might help with some of this. I have a decent idea on ICM but certainly still make some calls and shoves I'm sure that might be the wrong dicision and its an ever growing knowledge base for situations for the most part when it comes to ICM like any/all other things in poker.

So here it is, our chatter box thread so we can keep it all together and not clog up the rail thread, but just remember to keep rail involvment in the rail and specific stake involvement chat in the appropriate discussion thread for the stakes please and thanks.

 

[AlfieAA]

Nice one dave

Yes ICM is on the agenda this week....I looked at my first ICM article last night and I have a general idea how it works...sort of...

Infact I think I've been using it on a basic level already without really putting a name to it (ICM)....with pushing wider rather than calling wider....although I do this not only on bubble play......is ICM purely a therom for bubble play or can you incorporate it with say a final table or when our blinds get to 10-15.....or is that just a push/fold situation based on blinds to stacks and nothing to do with ICM.....if that's the case then I've never done ICM in my plays before as I usually just play the same when its the bubble...I.e...tight when I'm short and looser when I'm loaded with chips...

Where can I find push/fold charts for icm bubble play?....are they the same charts used as nash fold/shove charts or is that two different things entirely?...

I also read that you don't need to play iCM on the bubble but you need to understand it so you know what the players are doing that are using it and how to play against them.......do you guys use ICM?

Can you calculate it at the table on the spot or is it something that gets worked on off the table and you get a general idea the more you play about with things like ICMIZER?..........do people use ICMiZER while on the bubble to get calculations?....

I downloaded ICMizer a few days ago and I was like WTF is this...looks very confusing lol....also downloaded an icm calcultor from the pokerbank...chimp icm calculator and downloaded a tool that does ranges and icm from poker slueth with looks good.....anybody got these tools?.....

Yeah looking forward to learning all about icm and taking my game to the next level.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

*don't mean to keep you hanging alf, originally planned to have a look over your post yesterday evening and make a few comments. will do so tonight as i think a nap after work will be called for and probably won't do any amount of grinding until after the league game so prb review during league game.

 

[AlfieAA]

Yeah you're slacking man but I'll let you off since you only got 3 hours sleep after binking that mtt....

However I'll expect a full icm review when I next check this thread.....deliver me a good one

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Yeah you're slacking man but I'll let you off since you only got 3 hours sleep after binking that mtt....

However I'll expect a full icm review when I next check this thread.....deliver me a good one

Agree, obv I'm slacking as still haven't looked back at this LOL. Weekend was a lot of poker, little to no sleep and poor results but only slight damages on stars and ftp br (less slight on ftp tho).

Anyhow, I'll have some words on this tonight. If you don't see it with something then yell at me on skype to remind me as time fly's by when grinding

 

[steveiam]

This site looked quite interesting for ICM.

http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/index.html

 

[steveiam]

I don't see how you can work it out on the spot unless i'm missing something because it changes depending on the number of BB's you have and players at the table.

It's not something i use, i do tend to go with instinct more often than not. It comes down to my range of hands i will shove with and the hands i will call with which i suppose is ICM. Where it becomes difficult for example would be to shove with say 67 suited with 10bb and 6 players but not with 9bb and 9 players if that makes sense.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

I'll have to take a look at the link this evening, don't imagine I can open it here at work (usually can't to to much).

In essence yes it comes down to push/fold in regards to the ranges you should push or call a push from based on position/players/range of villians etc. The calculation is a little off the wall in determining the $EV of the players at the table in regards to chipstacks but as I had mentioned somewhere else at some point, a doubleup will never double your $EV which is why taking a flip is -$EV in the long run.

An example that tends to be used to illustrate is in a 9 person sng 1st hand so all players have say 2k chips, there is a shove say from sb into bb all others folded. sb has TT bb has AK, although this is a flip situation its actually +$EV for all players at the table except the two involved in the hand. Yes the winner will now have 4k chips however their equity hasn't doubled while all players who had no risk in the hand have also had their $EV increase although slightly it increasd by doing nothing. In this situation over the long run with both sb and bb each winning this flip 50% of the time it always makes it a -$EV play for both of them.

I had an example of the exact numbers in a sng book I have read but keep getting involved in playing poker as soon as I walk in the door in the evenings and keep forgetting. however what it determines to be in regards to your equity is that in the situation where if calling for example someones shove ideally you want to you EV to be ahead to the point of being greater than the % of $EV you are going to increase if you win. So say if calling an allin is going to to increase your $EV by 40% then to call the allin you want to be 60/40 favorite against the opponents shoving range for your call to be +$EV in the long run.

As you said steve a lot of it comes down to push/fold especially in say turbo stt's when its pretty much your only option and so you are either shoving to get all to fold or shoving with a monster hand hoping someone will have what they deam to be a calling hand. Crunching #'s for ICM basically comes down to situations whereby say I just shoved AJ from the btn into sb and bb was this a +$EV play given their stack sizes the equity increase I would recieve if I won based on my equity in the hand against what I deem to be their calling range.

All of this is why when it comes to the bubble play in an stt if the big stack is shoving but you are 2nd in chips, unless you have bullets essentially its -$EV essentially to call. Granted an argument could be said for the fact that if they are following ICM they can be pushing superwide because they know I won't call without the top of my range, however even knowing this the fact that we know any Ax is certainly push worthy for them even with KK it still puts us 70/30ish on a quick rough estimate (3 outs 5x2% = 30%) and taking this risk when if they hit the 30% of the time but if we win our equity may only increase about 60% is -$EV, plus it doesn't bust the bubble because no one went out even when we win which means it might only be a 50% increase in equity. This plays differently in regards to your stack size, If I'm the shorty I have a much wider calling range because I would be under more pressure and therefore would be shoved on wider and also my $EV would likely take a larger increase with a double up than would a middle stack (also who would lay down a strong hand when folded will probably cause you to blind out without getting anything decent in the next few hands).

I'm sure this is probably more confusing lol, but tools like ICMIZER and SNGWiz generally are for analyzing the situation where in essense you analyze situations to determine if you made the correct call or shove in relation to long term $EV.

I'm sure once I have read my other sng book and reread them I would be able to more clearly reem this info off the top of my head but it has been a couple of months since i looked at it now, so hope this helps slightly more than it confuses.

 

[WiZZiM]

I'll have to take a look at the link this evening, don't imagine I can open it here at work (usually can't to to much).

In essence yes it comes down to push/fold in regards to the ranges you should push or call a push from based on position/players/range of villians etc. The calculation is a little off the wall in determining the $EV of the players at the table in regards to chipstacks but as I had mentioned somewhere else at some point, a doubleup will never double your $EV which is why taking a flip is -$EV in the long run.double ups in some cases can double equity, but very rarely is that the case. we have to take flips in sng's. not doing so would be heavily -$EV. the ICM equation in regards to SNG wiz takes all situations into account. so when we shove, how often they fold, how much equity we gain/lose if they call etc. basically it has algorithms setup which take into account all of the various situations that may arise.

An example that tends to be used to illustrate is in a 9 person sng 1st hand so all players have say 2k chips, there is a shove say from sb into bb all others folded. sb has TT bb has AK, although this is a flip situation its actually +$EV for all players at the table except the two involved in the hand. Yes the winner will now have 4k chips however their equity hasn't doubled while all players who had no risk in the hand have also had their $EV increase although slightly it increasd by doing nothing. In this situation over the long run with both sb and bb each winning this flip 50% of the time it always makes it a -$EV play for both of them.

I had an example of the exact numbers in a sng book I have read but keep getting involved in playing poker as soon as I walk in the door in the evenings and keep forgetting. however what it determines to be in regards to your equity is that in the situation where if calling for example someones shove ideally you want to you EV to be ahead to the point of being greater than the % of $EV you are going to increase if you win. So say if calling an allin is going to to increase your $EV by 40% then to call the allin you want to be 60/40 favorite against the opponents shoving range for your call to be +$EV in the long run.

As you said steve a lot of it comes down to push/fold especially in say turbo stt's when its pretty much your only option and so you are either shoving to get all to fold or shoving with a monster hand hoping someone will have what they deam to be a calling hand. Crunching #'s for ICM basically comes down to situations whereby say I just shoved AJ from the btn into sb and bb was this a +$EV play given their stack sizes the equity increase I would recieve if I won based on my equity in the hand against what I deem to be their calling range.

All of this is why when it comes to the bubble play in an stt if the big stack is shoving but you are 2nd in chips, unless you have bullets essentially its -$EV essentially to call. Granted an argument could be said for the fact that if they are following ICM they can be pushing superwide because they know I won't call without the top of my range, however even knowing this the fact that we know any Ax is certainly push worthy for them even with KK it still puts us 70/30ish on a quick rough estimate (3 outs 5x2% = 30%) and taking this risk when if they hit the 30% of the time but if we win our equity may only increase about 60% is -$EV, plus it doesn't bust the bubble because no one went out even when we win which means it might only be a 50% increase in equity. This plays differently in regards to your stack size, If I'm the shorty I have a much wider calling range because I would be under more pressure and therefore would be shoved on wider and also my $EV would likely take a larger increase with a double up than would a middle stack (also who would lay down a strong hand when folded will probably cause you to blind out without getting anything decent in the next few hands).

I'm sure this is probably more confusing lol, but tools like ICMIZER and SNGWiz generally are for analyzing the situation where in essense you analyze situations to determine if you made the correct call or shove in relation to long term $EV.

I'm sure once I have read my other sng book and reread them I would be able to more clearly reem this info off the top of my head but it has been a couple of months since i looked at it now, so hope this helps slightly more than it confuses.

I don't see how you can work it out on the spot unless i'm missing something because it changes depending on the number of BB's you have and players at the table.

It's not something i use, i do tend to go with instinct more often than not. It comes down to my range of hands i will shove with and the hands i will call with which i suppose is ICM. Where it becomes difficult for example would be to shove with say 67 suited with 10bb and 6 players but not with 9bb and 9 players if that makes sense.

You dont work it out on the spot, it's almost impossible. however, we know that a lot of similar spots happen in SNG, so we can study ICM, and over time, know if a play is profitable or not based on us playing a similar spot before. Once you have acquired a decent amount of knowledge, you can then adjust decisions based on how wide/tight players are shoving, or callign with.

SO yeah, instinct is great, but not if you don't know mathematically if you are even close to making the correct decision in a particular spot. ICM is related more closely to common sense than anything.

This site looked quite interesting for ICM.

http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/index.html

Whenever it mentions the word "unexploitable" it's refferring to the NASH equilibrium. which is bascially a defensive play usually used against very good regular players. not technically icm, which is merely a calculator of sorts for determining the amount of equity you have in a tournament.

 

[WiZZiM]

Nice one dave

Yes ICM is on the agenda this week....I looked at my first ICM article last night and I have a general idea how it works...sort of...

Infact I think I've been using it on a basic level already without really putting a name to it (ICM)....with pushingwider rather than calling wider....although I do this not only on bubble play......is ICM purely a therom for bubble play or can you incorporate it with say a final table or when our blinds get to 10-15.....or is that just a push/fold situation based on blinds to stacks and nothing to do with ICM.....if that's the case then I've never done ICM in my plays before as I usually just play the same when its the bubble...I.e...tight when I'm short and looser when I'm loaded with chips...yes definitely you can use ICM for final table MTT play, and you should! most of the time in MTT we are using CEV but when we get to the final table, or in huge tourneys $EV becomes much more important. iin regards to something like a 9man sng, then $ev is much more imporant all the way through the tournament. although the "ICM tax" is much heavier on the bubble than anywhere else. in fact, we use $ev all the way up to HU where it switches to Cev and no ICM tax is present.

Where can I find push/fold charts for icm bubble play?....are they the same charts used as nash fold/shove charts or is that two different things entirely?...push/fold charts are dangerous, they are an ok tool if you are starting out playing. once you get a bit more involved with ICM and sng wizard, you can actually pretty easily make your own push/fold charts. the beauty of that is you can develop a chart based on your own judgement and what your opponents generally play like. for example, someone may have made a chart that works for $30 sng, but it would be useless using it in a $2 sng, as the player ranges would be much tighter, thus you would be losing a lot of spots using that chart. also, if you do decide to use a chart, remember it's only a guide, sometimes, even a lot of times you may want to deviate from it based on the calling range of your opponent. basically common sense.

I also read that you don't need to play iCM on the bubble but you need to understand it so you know what the players are doing that are using it and how to play against them.......do you guys use ICM?i use it, but it really depends on who my opponents are. like if i'm playing against regular players who i'm aware of and i think they are using some similar strategy, i can then make plays to take advantage of that. basically putting them into situations where they have to fold a lot of the time, forcing them into making mistakes.

Can you calculate it at the table on the spot or is it something that gets worked on off the table and you get a general idea the more you play about with things like ICMIZER?..........do people use ICMiZER while on the bubble to get calculations?....
nah, it would take far too long. not sure about icmizer, but i know sng wizard will not open when stars or others are open, as it violates the TOC of the site. i'd suggest not using it unless you want a nasty letter. but yeah, it's done in study away from the table. I actually used to use HEM to study, i'd use the filters to narrow down problem areas in my game, then paste those hands directly into sng wizard, so i could basically look at 100-200 3bet shoves that i made against 10bb stacks or whatever, so looking over specific situations like that really helsp when you are in game.
I downloaded ICMizer a few days ago and I was like WTF is this...looks very confusing lol....also downloaded an icm calcultor from the pokerbank...chimp icm calculator and downloaded a tool that does ranges and icm from poker slueth with looks good.....anybody got these tools?.... used to, now i only have sng wizard since i really dont play much anymore. you can get icm calculators for free everywhere on the net. if you have any specific questions about any of the tools post away in here..

Yeah looking forward to learning all about icm and taking my game to the next level.

..

 

[WiZZiM]

here are some old threads that popped up, i posted in many, many more discussing ICM in depth, but it might take a while to find them. these might be interesting though

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/2-nlhe-stt-turbo-aqs-bb-176569/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/6-50-nl-stt-turbo-bubble-172003/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/5-nlhe-stt-bb-bubble-220231/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/3-nlhe-stt-turbo-j7-bb-191660/

please don't post in them though, no one likes old threads being revived

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Thanks for all the feedback wizzim. Have probably read through each of those threads you linked before but will be sure to take a look again, as know from such you did a lot of stt grinding in the past and have lots of knowledge on the matter up in the brain. Tis much appreciated for us folks just trying to get familiar with it.

 

[AlfieAA]

thank you dave and wizzim....great stuff in here, will study all this stuff now and come back with any questions...although from scanning through it, i think everything has been explained in an easy to understand way...so thank you...very helpful stuff and something ive took my eye off in recent days while playing stt's...