Great call; I guess!

S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
This hand occurred in a local live $310 buy in game at my local casino. The table is populated with very good to above average players. Starting stacks are 40K with blinds starting at $100/$100 and 30 minute levels; so this is a deep stack affair. I had been doing really well, having flopped Broadway versus a set of aces and a set of sixes to bust another player, and had 175K by the 5th level – which was far and away the chip lead. As a result I had been playing much looser than I normally do, but was still exposing quality hands at showdowns – in short it was just one of those tournaments were everything was clicking and I was in the “Zone” as it is sometimes referred to.

Blinds are $1200/$2400 with an ante of $300, I have ~175K and my opponent has ~90K.

From UTG +2, I’m dealt :qd4: :jd4: and raise to $6500.

(This EP raise with QJ was certainly much looser than I typically open, but it was a good spot with my current table image and chip stack)

The player from UTG+3 flats my raise and everyone else folds. She is a good, quality, player, and a little older as she is in her later 40’s – but I feel she thinks she is much better than she is. I know this is a common disease in poker, one that I probably suffer from – from time to time as well, but she just kind of stands out in my mind as a problem player for the wrong reasons.

Flop: :kd4: :as4: :8d4:

I follow through with an $11K C-bet and she flats again.

Turn: :qc4:

I check raise my opponent to $30K, after she bets 12K, and she flats yet again; total pot size is now over $100K.

River: :ah4:

I move all-in, which has her covered by 3:1. She agonizes over her decision for 3 full minutes and finally calls.

I know I’m beat as soon as she calls and she flips over :kc4: :7d4: to win. She said “I’ve been playing men too long to fold that honey” and she raked in the pot and over half of my chips.

Now I know that sometimes you get called and that’s all there is too it. But, in this situation I don’t know what else I could have done. Certainly I thought I could get hands in the Kx range to fold, when she called I was expecting to see an ace. She had been drinking, pretty heavily, as well, and I just wonder WTF?

One thing I wish I had considered was the fact that by the river, over 50% of her stack was in the middle; but what were my options – a give up slide on the river? I could have check raised all-in on the turn as well. Frankly I wished I had because that seems to be the better play; any thoughts?
 
I

iamnothere

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
May 5, 2012
Total posts
14
Chips
0
her play is obviously bad, even if she has a read on you and knew you were weaker than her, she still called preflop with 6 players left, seems bad to me

i think the all in on the end was bad, after the flop you were playing for straight or flush, and then you changed your plan with low pair, and her fold equity was low ( looks so to me ) because she had already called two raises and check raise, she was bound to have an ace ( or a king as it turned out )
 
R

rootsreggae

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Total posts
11
Chips
0
I just don't understand why you check-raised on the turn? Why not just call?

She clearly had something pretty decent (a king or ace), and you are essentially just drawing..

Imho, that checkraise seems a little reckless considering the situation
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Well, the thinking there was:

I bet the flop and she called – she could have anything, maybe even QJ herself. She could also have something like an 8 and call just because I’m making a C-bet in a standard spot.

A queen hits the turn, which completes the J 10 draw. Since she bet there I can be fairly confident she doesn’t have J 10 – hence the purpose of the check. By then raising I’m hoping to just end whatever it is that she is up to. If I had check raised all-in, I’ll bet she would have folded.

All-in on the river was a last ditch attempt to get her to fold, my hand didn’t get any better, but neither did hers of that I can be fairly certain. The only ace she could really have there is like A 5 and smaller and if that was the case she most likely would have folded to the CR on the turn.

Now I don’t really have a huge problem with her play – if she had that good a read on me than I guess it just wasn’t meant to be. What she was doing flat calling from EP with K7o is another question entirely. But in the end, I think I played it well (short of a CR all-in). I put her to a decision for all her chips, where she ended up having to call all her chips off with a pair of kings on a draw heavy board with two aces against an early position hand. But she called, and I lost so…I just wanted to talk this one out – I guess I could have avoided the whole issue by just not playing QJ from EP like I normally do, but I didn’t.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
There's nothing wrong with calling with the best hand.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
I guess the moral of the story is not to bluff a drunk live fish ?

I never shove the river here without the nuts in a big pot, pre is fine, c/r the turn is just bad, just bet it for value. Shoving the river is just meh. A live player especially a drunk one wont be folding any piece with most of their stack invested on the river, she isnt thinking about what "got there" just that there is 2 aces on the board, so he prob dosnt have one, i callz.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
I guess the moral of the story is not to bluff a drunk live fish ?

I never shove the river here without the nuts in a big pot, pre is fine, c/r the turn is just bad, just bet it for value. Shoving the river is just meh. A live player especially a drunk one wont be folding any piece with most of their stack invested on the river, she isnt thinking about what "got there" just that there is 2 aces on the board, so he prob dosnt have one, i callz.

Yeah, I mean obviously I’m with you on that…but I don’t think she was “that” drunk – just drinking heavily; fine line? Maybe; but I certainly wouldn’t call her sloppy drunk.

I don’t understand why the C/R is bad? Against and drunk or drinking player, yes it probably isn’t very good, but against a good player, the C/R looks strong and anything except bluffy.

The problem I have with this hand is that the only real credible hand she could have with the line she chose (call, call, bet/call, call) is a made one – like J 10, or aces full, maybe some kind of two pair. That’s the reason for the river shove – not that my hand was best, but that I thought I could get her range of hands to fold, she either had the stone cold nuts or something very vulnerable like pair of kings – I went for the fold and lost! If I want the fold, there is no other choice but all-in on the river! Either that or I have to check and fold the river.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
c/c turn c/f river. not the texture or opponent to be c/r turn and expecting it to work with any real frequency.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
c/c turn c/f river. not the texture or opponent to be c/r turn and expecting it to work with any real frequency.

Yeah…OK, that's probably right!

Hypothetically, though, if you knew your opponent was K7 weak a turn C/R is +EV right?

I’m not saying that I knew that here – this is just hypothetical?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
not really, logically she should be checknig back her SDV hands, so the range she bets on the turn is pure air and value, and there is waaaaay more value hands in her flop calling range than there are random floats.

so thats my first problem with a c/r

my 2nd problem is that you dont rep anything, i dont understand what hands you would be c/r here for value. the value line would be bet/bet/shove like you would with AA/KK/AK/AQdd/AQo/QQ etc etc etc
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
not really, logically she should be checknig back her SDV hands, so the range she bets on the turn is pure air and value, and there is waaaaay more value hands in her flop calling range than there are random floats.

so thats my first problem with a c/r

my 2nd problem is that you dont rep anything, i dont understand what hands you would be c/r here for value. the value line would be bet/bet/shove like you would with AA/KK/AK/AQdd/AQo/QQ etc etc etc

Yeah, that’s true – I guess I wouldn’t C/R Broadway huh? I guess my thinking was more along the lines of a bluff attempt, not actual hand representation. “If I C/R here she’ll put me on a big hand”. But you’re right; what hand would that be? Any big hand I could have would be a bet the turn situation.

Sigh….I still don’t think she even considered most of this – and I still lost, probably should have just folded pre!
 
N

Nooneinparticular

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Total posts
109
Chips
0
"….I still don’t think she even considered most of this "

Yup, this. Donks/Fish like this (drunk or otherwise) only look at their cards. I play a cheapish live game here for a bit of fun and you have to play completely differently. Waiting for actual hands, rarely bluffing, and just overbetting as you will get value from them, and they can easily stack off with top pair crap kicker etc.

Just be aware of players like this, and play accordingly!
 
Loonbat

Loonbat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Total posts
386
Chips
0
my 2nd problem is that you dont rep anything, i dont understand what hands you would be c/r here for value. the value line would be bet/bet/shove like you would with AA/KK/AK/AQdd/AQo/QQ etc etc etc

Best point in this thread.
 
RiverMeTimbers

RiverMeTimbers

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Total posts
172
Chips
0
I just don't understand why you check-raised on the turn? Why not just call?

She clearly had something pretty decent (a king or ace), and you are essentially just drawing..

Imho, that checkraise seems a little reckless considering the situation

Yes after reading both threads involving this lady I would have to agree that after she had made the call and and especially after the check/raise this woman wasn't getting off her hand.
 
Top