Good, Bad, or Understandable Laydown

Situation:
Live tournament, 2nd hand dealt
Blinds:25,25
me: utg dealt AKo
I raise to 150 (pretty standard at this tournament)
3 or 4 callers behind me
Flop: A84 rainbow
me: raise to 500, next guy folds and lady in seat 7 raises me 500; rest of table folds and I call the 500.
Turn: A
Before I could do anything the other player is going all Phil Helmuth on me and shoving her chips into the middle.
After MUCH thought and deliberation, I mucked my AK.

I know, I know...perhaps I am a fool, perhaps not. I'd like to give my reasons for folding this and find out what you would have done.

1. It's the start of the tournament, only the 2nd hand dealt. I have no information at all about the players at my table. None.
2. When she raised me on the flop, I can only put her on a couple of hands. She may have a set, which she definitely would have called 150 preflop with a pocket pair. She may have 2 pair already, like A8 (prob suited if she called 150 preflop--people seem to like that hand as much as they like AT). Or she may have AQ, AJ, AT which are the range of hands I could beat.
3. The way she reacted to that A on the turn told me she either had a big A, in which case I should call and take all her chips, or she had filled up.

What would you have done?

dude..why would you fold that..you made the wrong move imo. I would step all over your complete weakness!! I mean you raised big time..Dont you think that immediate push with the ace falling tells you that she is probably bluffing, or so excited about another ace with her weak ace falling. I would estimate you had the best hand a majority of the time and should have called.

Obvious call. Most likely has A2-AK. That's 9 hands you beat, 2 hands you lose to, and 1 hand you tie. Let's include 88 and 44 and you still beat 9 out of 14 possibly hands annnnnnd you already have a ton of chips in the pot.

Also, it only being the second hand you can get a quick double up or go do something else instead of having to play with a short stack in which you would probably lose anyway.

I could not agree more ^^^ ..In all honesty she probably had AT+ if she had any level of skill but the uber push really shows weakness if you ask me. If you had a fullhouse(hole cards A8) wouldnt you wanna milk it instead of just shoving all of your chips in with excitement. I would even think a live casino player with little experience would have that natural ability.

well, I actually don't have a lot of live experience so there's no need to get all that nasty about it ok.

I posted this because after thinking about it later on, I figured out that I def should have called. I was just replaying what was going on in the moment. Live and learn for sure.

Especially when it comes to posting anything I'm finding out.

I would never muck that in my life I would beat her with the chips to the pot.

Although villian having A-8 is a real possibility, I think she would have shoved on the flop if she hit 2 pair.

Regardless of what hand in the tournament I'm in, I'm shoving here anyway.

NOLA Red said:

well, I actually don't have a lot of live experience so there's no need to get all that nasty about it ok.

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...kind of different when you can actually hold the chips in your hand

NOLA Red said:

I posted this because after thinking about it later on, I figured out that I def should have called.

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which is why you posted it...just so you kick yourself knowing that others agree with your after thought

NOLA Red said:

I was just replaying what was going on in the moment. Live and learn for sure.
Especially when it comes to posting anything I'm finding out.

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...best way to get better is to replay things in your head and analyze what you did verses what you should have done...like you said you didn't have a lot of live experience... chalk this one up to live play "stage fright"/panic...or the simple fact that you planned on playing this tourney for more than two hands that night and didn't want to blow the buy-in and the evenings plans on only the second hand dealt

As for this hand yes, you are ahead of 9 out of 14 hands you can reasonably put her on and tied with another. Of the four remaining (A8, A4, 88, & 44), you still have a ~6% chance of hitting a K on the river for Aces over Kings....I'm also going to guess that the rest of the tourney didn't go so well....and I'm only guessing that because this hand bugs you to the point of "what if".... and all I can say about that is to not be results oriented.

What I mean by that is this: If you HAD called and she did have pp 8's and the river is a 2, would that make the act of calling any less correct?
What about A2 with a 2 on the river? Would that make the act of calling any less correct?

Hang in there, keep analyzing your play and keep posting and asking questions...that's what CC is all about

Curious

What was the entry fee and starting chip stack for this tourney?

I agree with the posts when you consider the entry fee acceptable to lose very early, and you already put in 2/3 of your chips. Very easy call.

With a large fee and with a 3-5k starting stack, its another situation...

It's all relative to your tolerance.

And don't feel bad, we all have folded hands that we shouldn't of.....

Tonawanda said:

What was the entry fee and starting chip stack for this tourney?

I agree with the posts when you consider the entry fee acceptable to lose very early, and you already put in 2/3 of your chips. Very easy call.

With a large fee and with a 3-5k starting stack, its another situation...

It's all relative to your tolerance.

And don't feel bad, we all have folded hands that we shouldn't of.....

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Yeah this is a vital piece of info IMO.
If it's ~£15 I wouldn't expect the skill level to be so crap that they shove all in with a full house, they would slowplay that.
Also if its a lot of money and you dont wanna loose a big pot in fear of going out, maybe drop down a buyin or two as playing above your BR means your gonna play too tight (in my experience).

BTW i would have snapped her off, she could have even had a hand like QQ or KK, and figured the chance of you having an ace (with two aces on the board) was low.
Edit: after re-reading the post, KK or QQ IMO isnt likely.

Entry fee for tournament was $100+$20 and a $10 add on (toke for the dealers) so total buyin was $130.

Starting chips (can't recall exact amount) around 3300-3500 I think, with a 1500 chip addon at start of tournament for a total of about 5k starting chips if I recall correctly.

I see

NOLA Red said:

Entry fee for tournament was $100+$20 and a $10 add on (toke for the dealers) so total buyin was $130.

Starting chips (can't recall exact amount) around 3300-3500 I think, with a 1500 chip addon at start of tournament for a total of about 5k starting chips if I recall correctly.

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If I understand correctly, you invested $130 in the tourney and had about 20% of your chips in the pot when the all in came.

Would be very hard to fold here, but with almost 4000 chips left, and apparently the potential for a nice payday if you can go deep in the tourney, I can understand your concern.

I wish you would have called though. Likely won with the better kicker.
She couldn't of put you on AK. That 8 is the only hang up.

Good experience though. Get em next time.

There is a slight chance of her having a set and obviously full house, quite possibly indeed however very unlikely. It wouldn't be surprising her holding A,rag at this point and indeed hit a fullhouse too. However, I'd of called it.

To be honest it's a cooler if she has you beat. You can't really expect much more on that flop. I'm guessing if it was a King instead of another Ace you would of called?

I don't believe you was ever beat. The shove kind (phil helmuth style) of would of made it an even easier call. There was no need for someone to shove and to be so aggressive at this point with a full house, even the worse donkeys in the world know how to slow play a monster hand. I personally think she had a pocket pair and wanted to rep an Ace. I seriously doubt you was beat!

Damn - gotta shove that. I understand being conservative in the early goings - but really, what more could you have asked for in a flop and a turn for your hand? You are sitting pretty damn good and are more times than not going to dominate this situation. If you get beat, you get beat - but that's a good hand to get beat on.

I was in a 64 man live and on only the 3rd hand of this afternoon marathon I had ATu on the button - folded around to me and I went for what I thought might just be a blind steal (3x). BB calls. Flop is AAK. He checks - I bet, he shoves. I pause - I have faced him before and even head to head at end of tourney. I know he is not a donk but will play a wider range than myself.
Possible scenarios include he has an A (I know he doesn't have 2).
A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, AJ, AQ, AK - 8 out of 11 I will win.
Will he call with A2? He will if it's suited.
But maybe he has KK - 8 out of 12 I win.
But maybe he has KQ or KJ or KT - 11 out of 15 I win.
So at minimum I win 2/3 of the time. I have to call.
He flips over AK for the full house.
My head hits the table with a groan and I am first one to the rail.
That's poker. Just saw Hellmuth last night get ousted - did not win a single hand.

UNDERSTANDABLE Laydown

Cold deck scenario, I put her on 8/8, 4/4, No other reason to put all her chips on the table so early otherwise, she may have got her set, then the A sealed for her.

I too would of folded there, plenty of tourney and cards to see yet, it would be nice to get to see a showdown on a hand like this, but there is also another A out there.

Did she play like that the whole game?
What was her range?
Take note of whats happening around you, and make your move when she off guard, and doesn't hit her set.

First of all, many thanks to PokerPete for your constructive comments, much appreciated.

Following the hand, which I showed, 3 or 4 of the players at the table, who've played with her often, told me afterwards that it was a good fold. They said that she only plays premium hands and pairs and that the way she reacted that she had filled up in their opinion.

After watching her play for the next hour, I would have then put her on 1 of 2 or 3 hands, AQ, AJ or a pocket pair that hit a set on the flop. She's not a particularly aggressive bettor as far as I could tell so maybe I made the correct move in that instance, maybe not. But I definitely agree that I had more than enough odds to call and given the same circumstance, I would probably call there.

I'd like to add here that this is not the type of a hand that I've ever, ever folded in my life and doubtful that I ever will again no matter what the outcome.

She was more than likely a donk but there is a good chance she had the hand you don't want her to have in which case your out in 2 hands and 100$ lighter. In my opinion that isn't worth it so good laydown if you really felt like you were beat.

Ugh, that's the real problem with needing to know more info about your opponent by the second hand in a tourney! I think about it this way... when you have AKo, besides the straight, you pretty much dream of A-rag-rag rainbow. Since you got your dream flop but didn't bet it, then maybe you shouldn't have even called her preflop. A great hand can be a curse when what you really need is to learn more info.

I don't know. Every tourney has a different feel. For some, a 20BB raise with 44 or 88 would be completely unheard of and thus you couldn't reasonably put her on either hand. For others, that's just the way people play. I've only played live a few times, but it did seem that people almost over-valued small pocket pairs. I'd say without any info about your opponent, then the all-in could definitely give you reason to take pause. But in general, that's an auto-call.

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Maybe she had K2s

ROFLMAO I doubt it

jbbb said:

Maybe she had K2s

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LOL! Wow, that's some of the worst poker I've ever seen! Just about every part of that K2 play was horrible. But calling with the ace sure paid off!