getting to the money, and bubble understacked

jj white · Apr 5, 2011

Hello,

In the MTT's, I keep getting to the money or the money bubble short stacked (you know, like 12th out of last 15 players or so). Does this mean I am playing to tightly as the money bubble approaches? With like 30 or so big blinds, should I start raising trash hands if I am not getting anything in the top 30% or starting hands? I am prepared to get my chips in with 25bb's, but should I be raising trash hands if necessary to steal blinds and maintain my stack in an effort to stay over 25bb's and not be forced to play for all my chips? I guess my main question would be, Is it ever appropriate to be raising junk hands? Or should I just keep waiting for my spots?

Any response would help greatly

Thanks,

Justin

seachicken · Apr 5, 2011

With the higher blinds and ante's you have to steal when first to act and in good position with ATC. If you are that tight you won't have to do this that often and you should be successful. Pick your spots and soon you will pickup enough blinds to find yourself 5 out 15.

If you are not stealing you are not playing to win.

The larger your stack compared to the others at the table the better it is to steal. The other thing you will notice is you will get called and even raised more when you do have a hand. Its great when you have been stealing blinds and raise from late position with kk's to find someone deciding to re raise you. More time than not you can push and get a call.

pricecube · Apr 6, 2011

Yes, being first to act here is very important. If you're looking to steal then others are looking to do the same thing so when you do get the chance to enter the pot first, you should try to take it. It's an area where my game has certainly improved. A lot of times you'll pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. Other times you'll get played back at but that shouldn't stop you trying to steal again. I'm always surprised at how often people limp from early position and then a late position raise induces the fold.

seachicken · Apr 6, 2011

I can not edit my original post and i thought of something that might be even more effective for you.

I am hesitant to put this out there because i don't want more people doing it.

It sounds like you play tight/aggressive and straight forward. If this is the case there is a better way to steal. If you only play top tier hands and haven't played in a lot of pots the best thing you can do is steal the steal.

I think this could be even more profitable.

Look for the aggressive players stealing. Normally there is at least one and sometimes two. When they make their steal attempt re raise them. Don't go crazy and come way over the top but make your normal i have a hand raise. You don't want to say i know you are on a bluff but i have a hand.
make sure you have position when doing this. It makes it more effective.

The best part is you don't have to get out of your comfort zone as much and the rewards are even better then stealing 2 bb's.

stealer raises 2.5 bb. Pot 4 bb
you raise and take the pot.

Gain 4 bb compared to steal of 1.5 bb. Yes i know ante's play a part here too but it just made the example easier olus the ratio of ante's to blind fluctuate.

MuscleMan76 · Apr 6, 2011

seachicken said:
I can not edit my original post and i thought of something that might be even more effective for you.

I am hesitant to put this out there because i don't want more people doing it.

It sounds like you play tight/aggressive and straight forward. If this is the case there is a better way to steal. If you only play top tier hands and haven't played in a lot of pots the best thing you can do is steal the steal.

I think this could be even more profitable.

Look for the aggressive players stealing. Normally there is at least one and sometimes two. When they make their steal attempt re raise them. Don't go crazy and come way over the top but make your normal i have a hand raise. You don't want to say i know you are on a bluff but i have a hand.
make sure you have position when doing this. It makes it more effective.

The best part is you don't have to get out of your comfort zone as much and the rewards are even better then stealing 2 bb's.

stealer raises 2.5 bb. Pot 4 bb
you raise and take the pot.

Gain 4 bb compared to steal of 1.5 bb. Yes i know ante's play a part here too but it just made the example easier olus the ratio of ante's to blind fluctuate.

Re-stealing is pretty standard. I guarantee there is way more people doing this already than you think there is.

OP: Like the above said, aggression is the key. Sometimes you will go out before the money, but sometimes you will be sitting in the top three as the bubble bursts or the final table approaches.

Zync · Apr 6, 2011

Personnaly, I won't ship in PF with 25BB. IMO, this is -EV to do that. A standard raise will do the job if you want to steal.

Yes, you need to steal and yes, you need to re-steal. Re-steal is an art and I still have difficulty doing it. Lately, what I suspected as a steal and tried the re-steal turned to be a real raise.

Also, I prefer to do a re-steal with a hand that if I have a call, I'm not in such a bad shape. Restealing with A4os is one of the hand that I hate doing a re-steal with. I prefer do it with 78s than a4os...

RamdeeBen · Apr 6, 2011

jj white said:
Hello,

In the MTT's, I keep getting to the money or the money bubble short stacked (you know, like 12th out of last 15 players or so). Does this mean I am playing to tightly as the money bubble approaches? With like 30 or so big blinds, should I start raising trash hands if I am not getting anything in the top 30% or starting hands? I am prepared to get my chips in with 25bb's, but should I be raising trash hands if necessary to steal blinds and maintain my stack in an effort to stay over 25bb's and not be forced to play for all my chips? I guess my main question would be, Is it ever appropriate to be raising junk hands? Or should I just keep waiting for my spots?

Any response would help greatly

Thanks,

Justin

I have a simular problem although usually I woulden't class 30bb/s on the bubble as short stacked. You shoulden't be raising trash with 30bb/s in my opinion, widen your range though and in late position you can try open even wider but obviously have to fold if you are raised again. I think they real time to be opening a lot wider than normal with again better than margin hands is around the 20bb/s mar to try and keep you blinds above the 20 mark because it's when you're getting to the 10bb/s stage its all open shove mode.

Again though, it's all situational. If you have tight blinds then for sure open wider if they are happy shovers with a high pencentage of pots you really need to open with slightly stronger hands and if pushed, any A, 10+ I'd be calling with.

seachicken · Apr 6, 2011

MuscleMan76 said:
Re-stealing is pretty standard. I guarantee there is way more people doing this already than you think there is.

I know and i didn't mean to sound like it was ground breaking but i don't want even more of them. I don't mind the stealer's trying to resteal but i hate the rocks that do it. Even one more is too many.

Gunner57 · Apr 7, 2011

I assume that you are an ABC to TAG player. All good advise in this thread for you to advance your game, but there is only one part of the equation.

I have been having the same trouble as you where I can consitantly get near the bubble but past the bubble and deep in the money is a lot tougher. I play mostly ABC and TAG. Where I have found my weakness to be when I open up to be aggressive mid torney with healthy stack is my post flop play.

As you start to become more aggressive pre-flop trying to steal blinds you will likely find yourself in situations post flop you normally would not be in... catch top pair low kicker, gut str8 draws, low flush draws, mid pair top kicker, ect. It is important to learn to effectivly put your oppents on ranges, build/minumize pot size, and play your hand accordingly.

My advise is open up your pre-flop game and steal in position as suggested above, but realize that you are going to likely need to build a strong post flop game as well in order for you to make the pre-flop aggression work in the long run.

Worak · Apr 7, 2011

seachicken said:
I am hesitant to put this out there because i don't want more people doing it.

If you only play top tier hands and haven't played in a lot of pots the best thing you can do is steal the steal.

I think this could be even more profitable.

make sure you have position when doing this. It makes it more effective.

Sadly we don't have positition too often (unless at BTN) but are mostly oop in SB/BB.

MuscleMan76 said:
Re-stealing is pretty standard. I guarantee there is way more people doing this already than you think there is.

OP: Like the above said, aggression is the key. Sometimes you will go out before the money, but sometimes you will be sitting in the top three as the bubble bursts or the final table approaches.

Admitting I'm a re-stealer if I spot a spot - it helps getting top hands played agressively getting paid off more too in later stages imo .

naruto_miu · Apr 7, 2011

Just curious, O.P you state your making it near the Money/Bubble SS, correct? Is this because your playing too tight? Or is it Because your not getting spots to steal..

Look at it like this 8 left until money, and your below average stack, Your in M.P now, I'd suggest for you to wait from this spot usually since you still have alot of players left to act...

Now lets assume your in the H.J/C.O/Buttons, and there's a few limpers in the pot already, I'd say wait once again, for the simple fact that A)You'd actually would require a Hand to actually ship it A.I OTT (Over the Top) of many Limpers Correct? Best Advice I can give you is to actually wait for your spots, Look SS+Pot odds usually= Easy Calls so because of this reason you must pick your spots against players, attack the Blinds, and the button usually if Nobody has limped in Prior to you is all I can suggest

MuscleMan76 · Apr 7, 2011

Also, I would like to know what OP's sample size is.

I mean, it could be just a bad run a cards or you're playing way to tight. Only time or hand histories will tell. I would advise checking out the Hand Analysis forums.

Poker Orifice · Apr 8, 2011

In my opinion it's impossible to answer this question without having an idea of how you play & what adjustments you're making on diff. stack sizes in Tournament play. It's just to hard to pin it on one thing or another.

Poker Orifice · Apr 8, 2011

ramdeebam said:
You shoulden't be raising trash with 30bb/s in my opinion, widen your range though and in late position you can try open even wider but obviously have to fold if you are raised again. I think they real time to be opening a lot wider than normal with again better than margin hands is around the 20bb/s mar to try and keep you blinds above the 20 mark because it's when you're getting to the 10bb/s stage its all open shove mode.

.

I'd have to disagree. With a 18-20bb stack I would tend to tighten up (generally speaking... all of these 'suggestions' are dependant on differing factors... I mean nothing is black & white). With 30bb's (if situation is good for it.. ie. limited number of resteal stacks to your left & players who know how to aggressively play a resteal-sized stack) you can be raising liberally (or hope to be, lol). On 20bb.. imo it's the opposite. You don't want to be raising on a 20bb stack, getting called (or even getting into a multiway pot) w junk that you're usually not willing to go all the way with (although we can make adjustments for when villain is believing we aren't likely to raise/fold on a 20bb stack.. when we actually might be... one (many)would assume that we wouldn't be though). With 20bb's, you're looking for spots to put the pile in over someone else's raise.

19Slim80 · Apr 8, 2011

In MY honest opinion - I'd rather steal when I was the dealer or right before the dealer. Going all-in first is going to give too many players an opportunity to call your all-in with a better hand. If you go all-in UTG, you need to have a GREAT hand. You can play worse hands from the button though. Good luck!

19Slim80 · Apr 8, 2011

Another important thing to keep in mind is that you need to stay patient. The longer you stay in the tourney the more you move up in the money. Let other players take themselves out when you can fold...even if your stack takes a little hit.

KingCurtis · Apr 9, 2011

A big leak in mtt play is to allow yourself to get too short before making a move or pushing all in, especially near the money. I know most pros say around 20 BBs they are already looking for spots in position to steal or re-steal all in.

If you ever find yourself with 5 big blinds or less than you should def be ashamed of yourself. I say this a lot but I'm looking for the top 3 payouts where the money is big. I want a big win or go home. Min cashes are for the Nits..........

CromMitra · Apr 9, 2011

i think you have to be more aggressive early on.you need to build a stack a before the blinds start to hurt near the bubble.if you have an above average stack near the bubble you can be more selective --if need be --around the bubble,waiting for hands while OTHERS get knocked out.if your low on blinds near the bubble your fate is out of your hands,you have to get a hand or a suck-out.once the bubble is burst,i like to up the aggresion in some situations like raising when it is checked to you in late posistion alot with a VERY loose range....keeping in mind of course the stacks behind you.....be much more careful with stacks that can bust you than you would with stacks you dominate.with the smaller stacks try not to make a raise into them unless your willing to play your hand for there whole stack....with the big stacks don't raise them with-out a premium hand you can double with.ALL other hands..........fold.

killingbird · Apr 9, 2011

YEah, sounds like you are playing a bit tight in the late states. Need to open your game up a bit and identify stacks who are playing very tight to steal from.

rufftuffcreampuff · Apr 10, 2011

hi

Try not to let your stack fall below 30big blinds & when the antes kick in you should be trying to steal the blinds from the tighter players.
If you have a tough time finding good steal spots & find yourself falling to 15 or 20 bigblinds, try shoving allin when in the blinds overtop of a stealer.

eqgh5uea · Apr 10, 2011

All-or-nothing, IMHO.

I'd play very loose in the later stages. An average stack is killer when you think about it: how will you 'play the player' when he/she topples you from a mere inclination?

strikeseven · Apr 11, 2011

Yeah, I hear you, I made a bad mistake in the Game of Your life, just 5 out of the bubble. Was severely short stacked, but could survive about 10 mor ehands. I was stalling, and Finally picked up KQ suited. I decided to push and the big stack calls with 7,8 off. He then rivers his 8.

So, long story short, play close to the bubble and then afterwards u can gamble.

naruto_miu · Apr 11, 2011

strikeseven said:
Yeah, I hear you, I made a bad mistake in the Game of Your life, just 5 out of the bubble. Was severely short stacked, but could survive about 10 mor ehands. I was stalling, and Finally picked up KQ suited. I decided to push and the big stack calls with 7,8 off. He then rivers his 8. So, long story short, play close to the bubble and then afterwards u can gamble.

Ya but lets be real, that's a free roll correct-FPP buy-in correct? PPL will do about anything there, and I mean You can't really compare that to a Regular buy-in game where you might have acouple 1ks at stake for 1st? Just my take on it, unless I'm mistaken

KingCurtis · Apr 12, 2011

strikeseven said:
Yeah, I hear you, I made a bad mistake in the Game of Your life, just 5 out of the bubble. Was severely short stacked, but could survive about 10 mor ehands. I was stalling, and Finally picked up KQ suited. I decided to push and the big stack calls with 7,8 off. He then rivers his 8. So, long story short, play close to the bubble and then afterwards u can gamble.

I disagree. I believe you should not even be getting to the point where you are severely short stacked. I'd rather take my chance stealing with a small stack and end up a 50/50, then blinding down to a stack that I can't even work with once the bubble pops....

Poof · Apr 12, 2011

KingCurtis said:
I disagree. I believe you should not even be getting to the point where you are severely short stacked. I'd rather take my chance stealing with a small stack and end up a 50/50, then blinding down to a stack that I can't even work with once the bubble pops....

I agree with this. I do not play these godforsaken things much, but too often find If I make it past the bubble, I have no room and go out within the next couple of orbits. To me, it is just as frustrating as going out right before the bubble.

getting to the money, and bubble understacked

jj white

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