General Theory: How do you play big pairs early in large field tournaments

belerophon

belerophon

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Hey there,

As the title asks I have a general theory request.

When you are very early in a large field (first blind or second blind level) tournament and you see all the ace rags donk shoving pre flop. How do handle good pockets cards like QQ or JJ, heck even KK I guess is susceptible here.

My normal technique is to not lay these hands down but if I do call and they do occasionally spike that ace I'm wiped out. Is this a leak in my game by not laying these cards I know to be ahead but still waiting for a better spot later?

Even if I call and double up, blinds are small, the double up doesn't get me that much further ahead. Is the risk worth the reward at this level?

Is it possible to lay these hands down and is it ever a good idea to do so early in a tournament?

Cheers
 
natsgrampy

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When I get PP J's or better, I will raise a decent amount, say, 10x the blinds. This will usually get rid of most A, rag hands.
A caller will generally have a good starting hand also. If I have Js to Ks and an A hits on the flop, I am betting the same as my original raise. If I get called again, it is probable someone has hit the A and I will back off at that point.

It's better to lose 20BB in this hand when you have 100BB, than to lose your whole stack by falling in love with your hole cards.
 
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jj20002

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at the beginning of big fields mtts there are a lot of people playing DoN with any two, seldom they have monster hands, usually they have specs hands but most of the time is any two

94s, J5s, Ax being x lower than 9, sometimes Kx or Qx could work for them, broadways become monsters, low pairs are thought to be unbeatable, either any suited or any conectors feel great, any two (without even watch them) why not, so dont be afraid, obviously time to time they are going to win, what about some wonderful players who are made to break the odds going allin with 72, and the magic from pokerstars brings a board that goes 22784?

just pay, your EV will be positive enough to deal with the bad beats like when a guy like that shows AA (no maybe is not a bad beat but coming from them looks like!
 
belerophon

belerophon

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I appreciate the responses so far. They fall in line with what I will do generally as well early on.

I guess specifically I am asking about those all or nothing scenarios. Where you are sitting there late with jj or even qq 5 hands in and the guy who has been shoving every hand so far shoves again. I have to call here right? Or can I actually say to myself, "It's early, there's still time." ?
 
Aces2w1n

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Just remember early in a tourney, everyones quite deeply stacked.

One thing about deeply stacked is that big PP or AK hands lose value... we have to be extremely careful against decent players.

But in lower micro tourneys they are great stacking hands :) we shove pre and get paid and double up with the occasional bad beats...

So how you hand these types of hands is depending on your situation, strong table? weak table? so table dynamics and what type of tournament are we playing a $200 buy-in or a $1.10 buyin will make a big difference.


.........


So in summary

Table dynamics we need to make sure we know what type of opponents we are playing?

Position? This is always best especially with hands like AK AQ or JJ QQ
 
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RamdeeBen

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If it's a micro tournament in general, I'm not folding any premiums facing resistance. Espically if this is a massively large field.

It really depends on the positions and action in front, but the only hand I'd consider folding is JJ but there has to be a good reason. Like, a raise 3B/4B and I'm folding. QQ might be marginal to call off but a lot of the times as you know yourself people are just hoping to double or bust soon so I'm hard pressed to fold even QQ.

This is assuming we have literally no hands on the players, if we have played like as less as 10 hands and I've picked up JJ and there's a 3B or 4B vs someone who clearly is just wanting to punt of their stack then I'm happy going with it, sometimes you hit the top of their range and those 10 hands but I'm ok with that.

A good example of this is actually only the other day in a $11 game. I had JJ and was 70bb deep, there was this guy playing literally 80/70 with a 3B% of over 20% over 35hands he was so aggressive like crazy aggressive and I open hoping to get action from him, rightly so he just 3B shoves I snap call so happy and he turns over AA...now this is just like running AA into KK for the most part. I'd fold vs a nit but was super happy vs this guy and was just unfortunate he picked up a hand lol.
 
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Shadowman647

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As much as I can I get the chips in preflop, bad beats be damned. Lady Luck takes over from there. :p
 
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losties

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I'm no expert at this but I'm certain that everyone would raise with PP. However, what determines whether you continue would be a someone shoving on you or re-raising on you. By then you would have a good indication at where you at. At the microstakes though I do expect players to be more loose and shoving it. I would try to avoid shoving if 3 or more players have called already and of course your position on the table does determine your play. Like natsgrampy said, you raise enough to get rid of all the loose players. But that still doesn't guarantee you going against live cards player with good cards. I am still in thought about this whole thing, especially not wanting to waste a whole buy-in :D
 
horizon12

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AA KK this easy call..
QQ you can call , but only when one villain shove,,,
JJ - fold , but some time you can call , look how many villain play table, if many fold , if one table 30% call , and 70% fold....
Other hands only fold , you can find more good situation , then risk with around 50% equity...
 
TomLeach

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Whats the actual question here? Is it about what you do earl stages, or what we do in a shove fest?

In micro stakes, im gonna raise up to like 4-6x the blinds, because people are dumb and call too much/light in the early stages of the lower buy ins. I want to get someone to shove me, or to get a nice big pot with my AA,KK etc.

If everyone is shoving, even if there is a raise, shove shove, im coming in with queens, and i think about it a little with JJ. The thinking is, a lot of people are shoving with KJ KQ K10, or Ax. so if i have people in the pot with me, and they are sharing aces, theres only two aces they can hit... if theyre coming in with Kx, and its not AK (worse case scenario), im just gonna laugh in their faces and take their chips 66% of the time.
 
romych007

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I think that you need a good raise in position to not get a ace on the flop your opponent, so that he made the call with a strong ace. So our couple will be the wining
 
Slawa1986

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At an early stage receiving QQ,JJ, KK, in any case, try to see the flop! Don't take a push from the fish. It is better to fold, you are likely to run into ACE and fly even with a strong card!!!!
 
Aces2w1n

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At an early stage receiving QQ,JJ, KK, in any case, try to see the flop! Don't take a push from the fish. It is better to fold, you are likely to run into ACE and fly even with a strong card!!!!


Sometimes the huge reward is worth the risk if you tripple + up
 
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hffjd2000

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Why fold those gold hands?

At least you have to enter. Have to gamble to go deep.
 
belerophon

belerophon

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Whats the actual question here? Is it about what you do earl stages, or what we do in a shove fest?

In micro stakes, im gonna raise up to like 4-6x the blinds, because people are dumb and call too much/light in the early stages of the lower buy ins. I want to get someone to shove me, or to get a nice big pot with my AA,KK etc.

If everyone is shoving, even if there is a raise, shove shove, im coming in with queens, and i think about it a little with JJ. The thinking is, a lot of people are shoving with KJ KQ K10, or Ax. so if i have people in the pot with me, and they are sharing aces, theres only two aces they can hit... if theyre coming in with Kx, and its not AK (worse case scenario), im just gonna laugh in their faces and take their chips 66% of the time.

Tom, your thinking is how I normally go about handling strong pairs in early position. And playing them strong seems to be most everyone's opinion.

Lately though I've been playing extra tight and finding that I'm lasting longer and doing better. Not to be a bad beat Barney about this sort of thing but in the micros the number of times I'm facing an all in pre-flop as a favourite is pretty big.

My question is this: If a 66% chance of a double up (if we think about your example scenario) at a point in the game where a double up isn't really going to make a difference. And 3 times in 10 I'm going to bust out in the first blind level. Is it worth considering that folding and waiting is the better play here? Is it possible to make it deeper into more tourneys by folding in that scenario.

Obviously KK and AA here we never would fold but almost any other strong hand (AK QQ JJ) might it be worth thinking about at least right?
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Tom, your thinking is how I normally go about handling strong pairs in early position. And playing them strong seems to be most everyone's opinion.

Lately though I've been playing extra tight and finding that I'm lasting longer and doing better. Not to be a bad beat Barney about this sort of thing but in the micros the number of times I'm facing an all in pre-flop as a favourite is pretty big.

My question is this: If a 66% chance of a double up (if we think about your example scenario) at a point in the game where a double up isn't really going to make a difference. And 3 times in 10 I'm going to bust out in the first blind level. Is it worth considering that folding and waiting is the better play here? Is it possible to make it deeper into more tourneys by folding in that scenario.

Obviously KK and AA here we never would fold but almost any other strong hand (AK QQ JJ) might it be worth thinking about at least right?

Yes, you can and should think about folding. (at least consider all your options). You never want to commit your entire stack blindly without thinking it through unless you've got the nuts (or the near nuts).

But usually it will be too profitable to pass up if you correctly assess the situation as doubling up 66% of the time....then yeah...you gotta go for it (usually). If it's a flip; then no you don't have to but if it's significantly better than a flip then you should take it.

The crappier the structure and the larger the field, the more risks you should be willing to take. so if it's a 5,000 player $1 turbo then you cannot pass up a 66% chance to double up. If it's the first round of the wsop main event, then maybe you can pass up a 66% shot at doubling up in the first round....
 
TeUnit

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it depends on the stack depths if you are really deep you should probably raise larger or be prepared to NOT stack off with one pair
 
TomLeach

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@Belerophon

In my example im specifically talking about early in a tournament, in which case im more than happy to take a significant edge to double up.
Later on, maybe im not too bothered about going up against a 70BB stack if i have 90BB and raise, raise, shove, and im looking at my QQ...

In response to the AK thing, if there is a shove or two infront, im probably gonna let it go, depending on the table dynamics, its just ace high, and youre likely to be against JJ or QQ at best really, so youre looking at a flip..


Also, regardless of being in the micros or not, shouldnt you be happy youre going in ahead a lot of the time?!
 
belerophon

belerophon

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Also, regardless of being in the micros or not, shouldnt you be happy youre going in ahead a lot of the time?!

Well, everything I read tells me I should be looking for reasons to fold vs reasons to call and I'm not necessarily arguing against your points. They are my current view.

They argument boils down to positive % likelihood of a small double up vs busting out early.

I'm happy to get a 66% chance but if I take everyone one that comes up in a tourney I'm going to lose one eventually. I just would prefer it's not for all my chips.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Well, everything I read tells me I should be looking for reasons to fold vs reasons to call and I'm not necessarily arguing against your points. They are my current view.

They argument boils down to positive % likelihood of a small double up vs busting out early.

I'm happy to get a 66% chance but if I take everyone one that comes up in a tourney I'm going to lose one eventually. I just would prefer it's not for all my chips.

You're going to cash in 1/10 tourneys. 1/7 if you're really good. You need to be very comfortable with the idea of busting in these spots or else tourney poker may not be for you.
 
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