Frustrating trying to move up / progress

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TopFuel

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This post may end up being quite long for which I apologize but I am getting just a tad desperate. What I am about to describe has happened to me more times than I can remember over the 10+ years I have been playing online poker and I am very keen to try and find out what is causing it.
Recently I set aside 20 buy-ins to play $7 turbo six max sng my target was a ROI of 5% and then to move up the buy-ins.
After about 300 games I had reached my target of $300 and so began playing $15 turbo six max sng. My next target being $900 for $30 games and an increased roll of 30 buy-ins over the original 20 for the 7/15 levels.
And true to form this is where it all has fallen apart. I am now down $345 having wiped out my $300 bankroll and so on.

This keeps happening to me whether it is trying to move up the limits in sng or cash. And as I said above it has happened so many times now that it is getting very wearing!!!

What I want to try and establish more than anything is what is going on here. I have a few ideas and would welcome other peoples thoughts and experiences.

1 The level of play at the next level up is just too good for me (I dont really buy this as I have heard it said that there isnt much difference for example in cash games between 1/2 cent and 1/2 dollar in all reality and it only starts getting drastically more tough higher up)

2 When I move up I start experiencing what I call invincible syndrome - ie I am so high from getting to the point where I can move up that I start thinking that I am far better than I am and then end up being crushed at the new level, by trying to win too many pots and generally being overly aggressive fancy play syndrome etc.

3 It is just variance and I need to carry on it will turn around in the end

4 I was just damn lucky to get to where I could move up and it was a fluke

5 The standards are just so much higher now than when I first began and there are some excellent players at 1/2cent cash and $1 sng for example.

6 Online Poker is rigged - Ok I threw that one in for some light relief and to get the idiots going who believe that rubbish :)

I am not sure what is happening and as you can probably tell it is really causing me megga frustration so any constructive and well meant comments will be very welcome

Thanks in advance

Mike
 
Arjonius

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Some thought of my own from reading the OP.

1. It's not particularly realistic to expect that you will progress smoothly every time you move up a level. Your particular game may be such that moving from say nl5 to nl10 is easy at that time, but when you build up the BR to try nl25, you can have a much more difficult experience because, for example, one of the differences is that nl25 has many more players capable of exposing a particular weakness in your game. Another player might have the complete opposite experience making these same level changes.

2. Just because you have the BR to move up doesn't automatically mean you have the skill to beat or even BE at the next level.

3. You're not a prodigy. Accordingly, you can't expect to move up smoothly every time like a prodigy would. Your feeling of invincibility when you move up is your ego talking before you've walked the walk.

4. Variance is a fact of poker life. However, it's also an excuse that too many players use too often so they can avoid considering the possibility they're not as good as they think.

5. Overall, poker isn't as soft as it was 10 years ago. However, you've had 10 years to get better. And it's not as if everyone else suddenly improved; it's been happening gradually over time. So if you can't beat a particular level now, it's not because poker got harder. It's because you haven't improved enough over 10 years to beat that level the way it plays today.

Sure, if you were the player you are now 5 years ago, you might have beaten this level. So what? That's an imaginary scenario, so basically irrelevant.
 
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Recently I set aside 20 buy-ins to play $7 turbo six max sng my target was a ROI of 5% and then to move up the buy-ins.firstly, 20buyins really isn't much of a roll, i'm all for aggressive bankroll management, but it just causes you to get stressed about results and makes you results orientated, distracing you from the really important things, like your next hand/study. Also, having ROI goals isn't really a great plan, it takes literally thousands of games to determine a ballpark figure of ROI and guess what? ROI is really out of your hands in the short term, the luck factor or "variance" will determine that. The only thing we can do is make good decisions as often as we can.
After about 300 games I had reached my target of $300 and so began playing $15 turbo six max sng. My next target being $900 for $30 games and an increased roll of 30 buy-ins over the original 20 for the 7/15 levels.This is an extremely agressive bankroll management. i honestly think you are trying to move up far too quickly. Just bc you have money or a 'roll' does not in any way mean you can beat the $15 games or the $30 games. I reg the $15s turbo 6max games at the moment and i'd want a minimum of $8-900 to play them comfortably i only have 700 on my account but i have backup funds if i ever need to, so i'm comfortably rolled to play, and i'm not worried about short term results. So overall taking shots is fine, if you are good enough, and if you are happy to move back down and grind your way back up again. Honestly, from the stuff i've read, i don't think you are good enough to beat the $15s. Obviously i could be wrong and i'm not having a go at you, but it's tough to beat the games today, everyone plays pretty good now :)
And true to form this is where it all has fallen apart. I am now down $345 having wiped out my $300 bankroll and so on.

This keeps happening to me whether it is trying to move up the limits in sng or cash. And as I said above it has happened so many times now that it is getting very wearing!!!whenever i see a player trying to suceed in two formats, it's almost always a case of them not understanding that mastering a actually beating a particular level is far more beneficial than trying to get "good" at multiple stakes or poker variants. You are better off trying to master a particular game/buyin level, that way you will have the basic skills to be able to beat another game or particular game.

What I want to try and establish more than anything is what is going on here. I have a few ideas and would welcome other peoples thoughts and experiences.Yep, you are not mastering one level, one buyin. you are likely mixing games too often. Learning to beat any level is tough, especially nowadays. In the past you could get away with a basic push/fold type game, but it's not the case anymore, especially in 6max games where your edges really only come from constructing solid 3/4betting ranges, and from postflop play.

1 The level of play at the next level up is just too good for me (I dont really buy this as I have heard it said that there isnt much difference for example in cash games between 1/2 cent and 1/2 dollar in all reality and it only starts getting drastically more tough higher up)
That is total nonsense. 1/2 dollar is going to play far tougher than 1/2 cent, not only bc the players are better, but bc you have to learn to handle the bigger swings.
2 When I move up I start experiencing what I call invincible syndrome - ie I am so high from getting to the point where I can move up that I start thinking that I am far better than I am and then end up being crushed at the new level, by trying to win too many pots and generally being overly aggressive fancy play syndrome etc.

3 It is just variance and I need to carry on it will turn around in the end

4 I was just damn lucky to get to where I could move up and it was a fluke

5 The standards are just so much higher now than when I first began and there are some excellent players at 1/2cent cash and $1 sng for example.

6 Online Poker is rigged - Ok I threw that one in for some light relief and to get the idiots going who believe that rubbish :)

I am not sure what is happening and as you can probably tell it is really causing me megga frustration so any constructive and well meant comments will be very welcome

Thanks in advance

Mike

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Thank you both for spending time to give such detailed replies. I have much more work to do somewhere in my game and I will do it. If only coaching was not so expensive as undoubtedly you cannot beat a really good coach watching you play and getting you to explain / justify your moves etc.
I have learned to put my tin hat on when posting to these forums :) as I am quite a sensitive chappy but I am not going to get better unless I look at my mistakes so the criticism is useful if sometimes a bit hard to take lol. I think that I am probably a much better player than you both think I am but that is so subjective and probably not relevant either.

Would welcome more thoughts from anyone else reading this thread, especially if you have a similar experience.

Thanks again to wizzim and arjonius for your time and thoughts.

Mike
 
suby_rafael

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Firstly i think 20 to 30 buyins are just not enough, keep a comfortably high buyin like around 80 to 100. I might not guarantee success but it does provide a sense of security bankroll wise which in turn enables you to play better poker.
With low buyins players can tend to play either too tight/scared or the other way around you mentioned, going for too many pots, spewing chips. So i thin this is the first and formost issue you need to address.

Also you don't necessarily have to move up the stakes. If you genuinely believe that the play there (high stakes) are unbeatable or have a low success rate for you then just tell yourself that you are not good enough at these levels. So just continue a stake below where you are more comfortable and where you believe the players are not of that high caliber. raising stakes just for the sake of it is getting a bit greedy or not necessary.:flybye:
 
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Thanks Suby for that. I think you are absolutely right about bankroll as was mentioned by the other two posters. I am undoubtedly trying to run before I can walk even after 10 years lol. When I left school in the UK i joined the local Police and I wanted to be the Chief Constable without bothering with the other "silly" ranks in between!!!
I need a bigger bankroll and also to slow down a bit. Thanks again for your input.
 
Arjonius

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Thank you both for spending time to give such detailed replies. I have much more work to do somewhere in my game and I will do it. If only coaching was not so expensive as undoubtedly you cannot beat a really good coach watching you play and getting you to explain / justify your moves etc.
How expensive coaching is depends on how you look at it, your poker goals, etc. If your goal (not dream) is to win millions or even to be a pro who makes a decent living, then is it expensive to invest a few thousand $ up front? If you reach your goal, the amount you spent will probably look like quite a bargain.

From a different angle, what about a training site rather than coaching? How much do you have to improve to win $30 more per month?
 
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WiZZiM

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adding to arjonius there are also options out there where you can get coached, regularly for profit/share.

i've done it in the past with team moshman and i'm pretty sure dakota has as well.
 
suit2please

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After about 300 games I had reached my target of $300 and so began playing $15 turbo six max sng. My next target being $900 for $30 games and an increased roll of 30 buy-ins over the original 20 for the 7/15 levels.
And true to form this is where it all has fallen apart. I am now down $345 having wiped out my $300 bankroll and so on.

Did you ever move back down to the $7 games?

This is the biggest thing that annoys me when people talk about BRM, not talking about moving down. Who cares if you have 20, 30, 50, or even 100 buyins for a level, the most important number to not going broke is at what point are you going to drop down a level.
 
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