Freerolls ICM push/fold

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te7ris

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Hi,
following Situation:

Hero in SB with 10k chips.
BB with 40k chips

Blinds 700/1400 with
Ante 140

Lets ignore chipcounts of the other players (I think at this point ~300 players were left, 90 places paid).

Hero holds A2s. Everyone folded; Should hero push? And if so why and does ICM matter here that much or is there a simpler Model or Idea or w/e? Is it still a push if I am sure that BU calls w/ every Ax?
 
O

Onkorunkus

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I'm pretty sure ICM doesn't play a role here, because
1. your opponent almost never knows ICM
2. It's still 200 players to the money, and you won't make it there with 7BB anyways.
As for it being a profitable shove, I'm not sure. I would probably shove, you still have fold equity + you're flipping v KQ/KJ/KT, which he's probably more likely to call with than A3-A8. Run it through a calculator though.
 
TimovieMan

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You may be confusing ICM with EV. ICM only comes into play on the bubble and on the final table (where the pay-out jumps are significant). You're 200 places away from the bubble, so you just need to focus on building your stack.

I shove this 1000% of the time.

You have only 7BB! You need to be shoving all your quality and medium hands, and even some of the weaker ones. Especially in the SB!
My range here is 22+, any A, any K, any Q, any J, any suited T, all connectors down to 43s and 65o, all one-gappers down to 53s and 75o and all two-gappers down to 63s and 96o.
 
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WiZZiM

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Shove way looser in most scenarios if you are questioning this really easy shove.

Just an example i would shove literally every single hand here, 82o i would happily jam, it really doesn't matter at this point since we're a long way away from the money. The range above ^ seems overly complicated. Just ask yourself in these situations and use common sense.

Questions to ask.

1. do i need the chips?
2. How desperate am i for chips?
Those determine how wide and risk averse you should be.

in this situation we're clearly very desperate for chips and we need to take risks to get close to being able to cash. But our actual goal in any MTT is to aim much higher than a min-cash, so we're going to need quite a few chips and we're going to have to double up quite a few times from this point to have any chance at all..

Thinking like this is basically what icm does, it's basically common sense.

Anyways, point is don't get bogged down with ranges that you will likely not remember. we're desperate, we need chips, we need chips to survive and to be able to cash so we're going to have to take risks. We're facing only one player, all of these things point to us having a very wide range. and it would be more risky to fold these spots overall. The worst thing you can do in tournament play is blind yourself out of the game. So when you have that 20bb stack, look to increase that to a 40bb stack, Work out how many chips you might need to be a bully around bubble time. you can do this by dividing the total chips in play by 90 players, and then do it for 9 players or whatever a final table is, that will give you a good idea of the average stack needed to get to those points, and it will help point you in the right direction of the amount of risks needed to do well. Obviously this is why icm is way more important in 9 man sng as you can win $$ even if you have 2-3bb which happens often especially in hyper turbo or turbo games. But you will almost certainly not do well if you are playign that stack size in mtt's, so icm is way less important, and getting that chipstack up nice and high is way more beneficial, but also you will be flipping more often and encounter more variance.
 
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te7ris

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Well first of all ty for ur effort everyone (exp wizzim :))
Currently I am playnig lots of freerolls and I am forcing myself to be very thight (becuase I am too loose usually). So I often find myself in these <10BB situations. Now I started to add situations where I can see a cheap flop (mostly overlimping CO Button; calling minraise when I am bb) when I am > ~15BBs. So im rarly in the situation that I have a big stack. I dont think I ever hit the bubble with a stack > 20bbs. In general is it more likly to have a small or a midsized stack at this time?

Btw. I did shove in that situation and I got called by A5o or smth like that.
 
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WiZZiM

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playing tight is fine. but you need to be aware of stack sizes and when it's a good time to do things with particular stack sizes. like 12bb and below you are best off just open shoving if you plan on entering the pot. 12-25bb you are best off riase/calling or 3bet shoving over raises, to give some very basic ideas.

In general good players will have larger stacks on average than the field. So if you are constantly below the average stack size, then you are likely not a good player, no offence intended.

Good players also tend to bust out alot more but also make way more deep and very deep runs because they are risking their stack more at 20-40BB stack depths and not waiting for the blinds to escalate and blind them out of the tournament. They understand it's better to be an underdog or 50/50 with a 40BB stack than be a 80% favourtie with a 10BB stack just to give a few examples.

So yeah if you have never hit bubble with more than a 20bb stack something may be wrong, it really depends on the structures you play. Since they are likely turbo/hyper turbo that might not be a big deal at all. And since it's a freeroll, you have to understand that you have invested nothing but time. So chasing those bigger stacks will help push you into more final tables and also give you more exp for playing bigger stacks which will help if you plan to play real money.
 
MoeJurphy

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Agreed WiZZiM, with 7BB left there's literally nothing we can do. Any connected cards are good to shove. Remember we don't judge our success on a single tournament. Make +ev decisions and check your progress long term.
 
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te7ris

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Again thank you for your awnsers they really help. Stuff like this

Good players also tend to bust out alot more but also make way more deep and very deep runs because they are risking their stack more at 20-40BB stack depths and not waiting for the blinds to escalate and blind them out of the tournament. They understand it's better to be an underdog or 50/50 with a 40BB stack than be a 80% favourtie with a 10BB stack just to give a few examples.

is something I never particually thought about before but it makes perfect sense. I dont think I go crazy mode now to try it out, since I have ~3$ now and will try some 10c tourneys.
 
Lucothefish

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at 7bb picking up the pot adds >30% to your stack.

As a guideline, it's rarely a mistake to open shove any two cards from sb when you're <10bb deep, and as wizzim said if you're having to ask about shoving A2s here then you're playing way too tight.
 
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WiZZiM

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Again thank you for your awnsers they really help. Stuff like this



is something I never particually thought about before but it makes perfect sense. I dont think I go crazy mode now to try it out, since I have ~3$ now and will try some 10c tourneys.

No definitely don't over adjust like you point out, but you can take on some spots you normally would not to get a feel for it. Especially in the freerolls where you have nothing invested. Just a slow change to becoming looser overall and taking on a few more risks earlier.
 
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Biznardian

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I do not know much about all the EV's etc but I would defenitely shove all in in this position with this card and stack.
 
TeUnit

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without more info.... you have 20 bbs effective, if you are way out of the money there is no icm, there is chip mode icm- but you can shove a2 for 20bbs happily

however, if you have reads on the bb, maybe he you think he will fold to a min raise, or maybe he is fit fold and will fold to a stab on the river- these moves would be more ev positive than your positive ev shove
 
luiaguila

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I think I should worry about build a stack as it is a free payment is still far from the reward will be minimal anyway with time spent but allin play aggressive and force many players
 
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hecorredor

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i am new player

I am a new player I would like to know the methodology of the page to help from my experience in the game and tournament
 
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hecorredor

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I share the idea is important to have a good stack to reach the reward:)
 
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EG7497

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Definite shove, it would be for a quarter of his stack and so he may not want to risk it, almost all the time you will be flipping at worst. Very much depends on if you've recognised any patterns in his play e.g is he playing loose?, if this is the first time that you've done it against him then he is unlikely to call.
 
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Toomin

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The hands that dominate you have to call.

You have too few chips to not risk though.
 
jscales

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Agreed

You may be confusing ICM with EV. ICM only comes into play on the bubble and on the final table (where the pay-out jumps are significant). You're 200 places away from the bubble, so you just need to focus on building your stack.

I shove this 1000% of the time.

You have only 7BB! You need to be shoving all your quality and medium hands, and even some of the weaker ones. Especially in the SB!
My range here is 22+, any A, any K, any Q, any J, any suited T, all connectors down to 43s and 65o, all one-gappers down to 53s and 75o and all two-gappers down to 63s and 96o.

I agree with TimovieMan... While the range mentioned there is a little wider than I would go with, essentially it's is the same. I would probably take out the two gappers there, but with only 7BB's maybe not.
 
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