Folding small pairs to Preflop All In, in SnGs?

X

x_driven_x

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How often are you folding a small-mid pair when up against an all-in pre flop in just an average scenario (ie blinds aren't super scary yet, average size stacks all around, still 6-9 players, etc...)?

Against 1 all in?
Against 2 or more all ins?

I've had a few times lately where I've folded small to mid pairs against 2 all in players to have them show things like AKo, AQo, AJo, etc... and where my pair would have won a huge pot had a not folded.

It makes me question if I'm folding these too often in these single table SNGs
 
Akorps

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Hard question. Sometimes the first all-in is with any 2 cards, then the second time the villain has the goods :)
 
Poker Orifice

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Question needs to be much more specific to get a decent answer (imo).

"Would've won a huge pot"
You first need to calculate how much equity you have vs. villain(s) perceived ranges.
Also > ICM considerations & risk aversion.

"How much does our tournament equity increase by winning a big pot?" (vs. how much does it decrease if we call & lose... ).

How does our situation change if we call & win? (& vice-versa if we call & lose).... vs. just folding.

In a typical standard SNG (STT) how we react to two shoves is going to be alot different than if this were an MTT (stack & structure dependent of course) as it would in say a DoN or Satellite.
 
psychotie

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Better not to play all in, I always avoid all in situations, and a call of all in of villian is never good. I prefer , to be the person who shoves first.
gl on and off the felts
 
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houtlijm

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i usually fold them 100% of the time. it's better to push yourself with the small pocket pairs or to just fold em. there is no reason to gamble this much this early in the tournament. when 4 or 5 are left you can start to push yourself.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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i usually fold them 100% of the time. it's better to push yourself with the small pocket pairs or to just fold em. there is no reason to gamble this much this early in the tournament. when 4 or 5 are left you can start to push yourself.

+1

You will rarely find me all in preflop with a small pocket pair unless I am the one who pushed....in that case the blinds would have to be pretty darn big....so basically in the situations you described I am folding them somewhere close to 100% of the time.
 
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If the flip is not necesary, or in case of winning it would change significantly your profit then yes, but if not fold, its better to wait for a better situation
 
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haihai

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No point in going all in with small pocket pairs if you haven't invested anything in the pot. At best you're flipping most of the time.
 
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jsaw

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I suggest running the calculator located at the top of the home page with a series of scenarios - which will back up the comments of many others in this thread.
 
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Thanks guys. Consensus seems to be to generally fold, which is exactly what I've been doing in these scenarios. It's good to confirm I'm doing something right from time to time ;)
 
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no chance to go allin preflop against 2 or more players in the situation you describe above

the reason is to easy imagine one holds 2-2 and two players shove, then the best situation one can have is when they hold AK both players or at least one of the card is the same, like Ak and AQ, still there are 2 aces, three kings and same queens to total 8 cards that bust you, so you are supposed to lose around 3 out of 4 to triple your stack, is quite even, but if they hold AQ and KJ (four different cards) then you almost always will need to hit a set to have a chance, and the worst case is when one of them hold a higher pair then your chance will be reduced yet more, so i think a low pair against more than one player you will be winning 1 out 5 maybe and just triple when winning (which don´t guarantte you that you are going to be itm, so the EV i think is negative,
 
abzdolc

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in the start of the tournament, it's pass 90%
in the middle u can play small pairs from the cut of , small b.
and I think u can play small pairs from the middle-or last positions at the final table
 
Arjonius

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The overall situation can factor into consideration. If you're at a soft table where you can pick up chips easily, there's less reason to get involved in risky spots for all your chips. Otoh, if you're at a tough table, there's more reason to gamble, although calling two all-ins would seem to be pushing it.
 
Poker Orifice

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in the start of the tournament, it's pass 90%
in the middle u can play small pairs from the cut of , small b.
and I think u can play small pairs from the middle-or last positions at the final table

And in the start of my dinner it might be a shove.

It's NOT a tournament. OP has clearly written in BOLD at top of thread that this is a SNG.

fwiw, there's a gazillion times where we're going to be REAL HAPPY about getting it allin pre with any pair in a SNG/STT (this is not one of them).
Reading through alot of the responses with their generalizations about small pairs in SNG's sounds like you haven't studied SNG/STT much if at all.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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And in the start of my dinner it might be a shove.

It's NOT a tournament. OP has clearly written in BOLD at top of thread that this is a SNG.

fwiw, there's a gazillion times where we're going to be REAL HAPPY about getting it allin pre with any pair in a SNG/STT (this is not one of them).
Reading through alot of the responses with their generalizations about small pairs in SNG's sounds like you haven't studied SNG/STT much if at all.

gee wiz...what did we do to incur the wrath of the orifice?.

simmer down now ya hear?

:D
 
vinylspiros

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Question needs to be much more specific to get a decent answer (imo).

"Would've won a huge pot"
You first need to calculate how much equity you have vs. villain(s) perceived ranges.
Also > ICM considerations & risk aversion.

"How much does our tournament equity increase by winning a big pot?" (vs. how much does it decrease if we call & lose... ).

How does our situation change if we call & win? (& vice-versa if we call & lose).... vs. just folding.

In a typical standard SNG (STT) how we react to two shoves is going to be alot different than if this were an MTT (stack & structure dependent of course) as it would in say a DoN or Satellite.


+1
 
WeenieSVK

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you have to realise, when you have small pair and you call allin, you are just coinflipping (in better scenario). Coinflip in STT is always EV- as long as you are not shortstack and have to play. So its 100% fold
 
vinylspiros

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Whats your definition of a small pair? Because for me JJ is a small pair. I think about it like this::---

. They either have AK or im screwed anyways. Doesnt matter if its 22 or QQ. I'm either flipping or im not.

Now if my 77 falls into 88, did i play it bad? No. It all comes down to what PO mentioned above. It's your situation that dictates whether you make the call or not. Blinds, stack,effective stack etc etc
 
skull89

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It's hard to say, cause you have to observe the player that shoves. I don't go all in with pairs under 88. Bad experiences.
 
wildyetty

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very hard question to answer cause it seems when i fold it usually hit my set or flop a boat... when I call they flop set or a boat....
 
eidikos

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i dont like allin-coinflip situations
try to avoid them especially when you are not commited and the blinds are high
also there is no folding equity there
call only with big pairs or ak some times
 
X

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It's not good to call too much with this hands, because you're normally flipping or a huge underdog. Even if you have a slight edge against to overcards, it's not good to call in sngs, because of the bubble factor.
 
rock0001

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well it depend on the position you are. i mean if a player go all in on utg + 1 and you are in utg+2 you should fold a medium pair because even though a medium pair can be strong against a single player it loses lots of value against 2 or more players and you shouldnt risk your stack in that spot. if you are on bb and only 1 player go all in you should probably call specially if you have a pair of 77 or better maybe even 66... however against 2 all ins you should almost always fold because your hand would probably be dominated by a bigger pair and even if both players had ak and aq, with a middle pair you will only have 40% of odds of winning the hand, so in conclusion i would probably call an all in in late position against a single all in and will almost always fold against 2 all ins.
 
skavenger

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good, each one plays in a way these pairs ... some prefer to play to hit the set, others prefer to go all in ... I think better play passively low , and the medios aggressive ... because at best hypotheses , you'll catch a flip against AK or AJ ... even against KQ is a flip ... open fold in utg and utg +1 can you ensure good records to better opportunities !
 
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