Folding KK preflop in a tournament

So I was playing in the daily dollar today. I was doing quite well. I was dealt KK, with one raiser before me. I reraised, another guy goes all in, BB goes all in, initial raiser goes all in. 3 all ins. I ended up calling. The initial raiser had AA. Other guys had JJ and something dumb I dont remember. JJ actually ended up taking it with a flush and I actually had AA covered with a king on the river. But JJ had me covered so I was dead at that point.

So yeah, is it ever correct to fold KK preflop if your tournament life is on the line? I'm thinking it rarely/never is at low buy ins because its very hard/impossible to know with utter certainty that opponent has AA.

Thoughts? :hmmmm: :shakehand

Well at such a low buy in its only a good move if you're really deep and the people busting will move you up in cash. Even then it can be extremely profitable but dangerous to call... imagine if you won, quadrupling up, it would be insane if you were near the final table.

No reason to ever fold KK in the daily dollar with 10,000 players. The only way to win it is to get a big stack early and start swallowing the short stacks up. I rarely see the super tight nits get far. I feel bad for them when they end up going all in 2 hours into it with J-rag b/c they only have 5 bb left.

I'm actually still in it and now can't seem to catch anything, I wish I could get KK. I think I may have been at your table when you lost with the KK. A very similar situation happened - guy had KK, another JJ and I think there was a 3rd, JJ took the pot.

Why do people want to fold so much...How many times have you won a pot large or small withh KK and thn started a thread about it (i am guessing 0). I am also guessing you have one for more with KK than you have lost with it.

Its just varience that you have found the top of you oppenants range. I think its pretty hard to call folding KK in a tourney pre a mistake, so I would say its a much bigger mistake to be looking for a reason to fold Kings and then been wrong about it.

Often peoplw will show up with hands like QQ/KK?AK aswell as AA some people even TT/JJ which KK has them all crushed apart from A.

So when you have KK dont think about folding pre please and when he/she has AA either suck out or fire up another tourney but please dont question the play as thats when you turn into a loose passive fish

Good Luck

TD

99% of the time KK shouldn't be folded, but this case is different. You had to fold in this situation... The pre-flop action guaranteed that one of the other 3 people has Aces.

TopDonk said:

Why do people want to fold so much...How many times have you won a pot large or small withh KK and thn started a thread about it (i am guessing 0). I am also guessing you have one for more with KK than you have lost with it.

Its just varience that you have found the top of you oppenants range. I think its pretty hard to call folding KK in a tourney pre a mistake, so I would say its a much bigger mistake to be looking for a reason to fold Kings and then been wrong about it.

Often peoplw will show up with hands like QQ/KK?AK aswell as AA some people even TT/JJ which KK has them all crushed apart from A.

So when you have KK dont think about folding pre please and when he/she has AA either suck out or fire up another tourney but please dont question the play as thats when you turn into a loose passive fish

Good Luck

TD

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I agree, no reason to be folding KK there. You have villians range crushed except for ONE hand...

Pafkata said:

99% of the time KK shouldn't be folded, but this case is different. You had to fold in this situation... The pre-flop action guaranteed that one of the other 3 people has Aces.

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There's a flaw in your logic. You included "guarantee" in a discussion about poker...

I don't play in this tournament but from what I gather, it's a $1 tourney??

LOTS of people are stacking off light in these low buy-in things. KK is ahead so many times..

Plus, I'm not sure what the blind level was but the OP was getting better than 3:1 preflop?

Yeah with such a low buy-in you need to push/call with KK.
If it was a bigger buy in and you were close to making the money and you had a good read on these players I could see folding kk.

Never folding KK preflop. NEVER! QQ and ak ok but not KK. I think he would have played the same if he had something dumb like AQ.

I ended up coming in 6th in a 2.20 double stack tournament later that night. Everything went my way. Kind of makes up for my KK getting schooled here.

With 3 all ins...I would of folded. That meant someone had to have had AA.

Just for the record that does not mean someone has AA in such a small buy in. I would not have been surprised if he was against AQ AQ and JJ or something like that. Call all day with KK in a micro-donkament.

KK

You have to call with that hand there is no way you should be folding even if he turned out having aces, it is an insta call with KK because the chances of seeing AA is unlikely
adsthepro

For everyone saying 3 all ins means aces...this really isnt the case in the daily dollar, we couldeasily see hands like Ak,AQ maybe AJ/AT(seriously) 77+ and maybe lower.

I have seen these tings so many times when I have seen lots of action then all chips go in I am thunking, wow must be a sick cooler even with deep stacks people are showing up with stuff like AJ vs 33 66 Vs 55 and I probably folded JJ or something.

IMHO was a good call I would make that call everytime in THIS tourney

TD

NO way that u r action was wrong there. U did exactly right by calling the re raise there...
That hand could have gone anyways.
According to my strategy, i would answer the 3 re raise before me by going allin whenever i had AA or KK or even QQ sometimes...
But if i had JJ, i would have definitely folded !!!
Thats just a bad beat u had there mate...

clavio said:

So I was playing in the daily dollar today. I was doing quite well. I was dealt KK, with one raiser before me. I reraised, another guy goes all in, BB goes all in, initial raiser goes all in. 3 all ins. I ended up calling. The initial raiser had AA. Other guys had JJ and something dumb I dont remember. JJ actually ended up taking it with a flush and I actually had AA covered with a king on the river. But JJ had me covered so I was dead at that point.

So yeah, is it ever correct to fold KK preflop if your tournament life is on the line? I'm thinking it rarely/never is at low buy ins because its very hard/impossible to know with utter certainty that opponent has AA.

Thoughts? :hmmmm: :shakehand

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Gut feelings say fold and there is some serious action going on, I usually get out the way. I folded 44 to AA vs KK vs 99. There was some heavy betting and I decided to fold. Would have won with quads. I had the feeling I was waaaaaaaaay behind and based on the feeling I folded, and I was waaaaaaaaay behind. I may regret folding after the fact, but pre-flop I made a great fold. X

In this situation i would fold my KK.

I would re raise the raiser and call if he goes all in. however, player who re raises all in after first raise and my re raise usually has AA! The fouth player's all in could mean he has strong hand or just wanted to go for it because of huge pot.

It seems to me that you acted correctly deoarce never knew how not enter a tournament and you out of luck continues

Is it ever correct to fold pocket Kings pre flop? Sure when you're up against pocket aces 80% of the time. Am I ever going to be caught doing it, HELL NO!!! odds are I am ahead, so I will snap call any all-in preflop. If the guy does turn over aces, I curse the midgets in the black box (that is the card suffler) or say Full Tilt is rigged like everyone else. But if the King hits and I crack aces, well I am very skilled and will take that suck out to a cash.

Even with top hand all-in is a coin flip....anything can happen.I am one who avoids coin flips unless I am the larger stack and not threatening my tournament life.This strategy has allowed me to survive to deeper levels in tournament play.It takes discipline to fold top hand..however my position has much to do with my decision also...early I always fold...utg..depends on the play..if others are going in...I fold...save coin flips for late stages where the only way to advance is find a good spot and try to double up or leave tournament with a cash in.

lightning2u said:

Even with top hand all-in is a coin flip....anything can happen.I am one who avoids coin flips unless I am the larger stack and not threatening my tournament life.This strategy has allowed me to survive to deeper levels in tournament play.It takes discipline to fold top hand..however my position has much to do with my decision also...early I always fold...utg..depends on the play..if others are going in...I fold...save coin flips for late stages where the only way to advance is find a good spot and try to double up or leave tournament with a cash in.

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So what are you saying? You fold AA and KK UTG?? AA AND KK are NEVER coinflips. They NEVER race with anything preflop.

So, you are essentially folding with 77% or MORE equity in the hand pre?? I can't think of a more -EV move...

Ohhh guys.I see so much threads here about folding big pairs pre-flop Ohhh God !

Cash game - you call, no discussion to be had at all.

Tournament play, I think a lot of you are missing an important point, OP would you mind sharing more details, the stage of the tournament, stack sizes? With 3 all ins already, you may have the best hand, but it is unlikely that you are a big overall favourite. I am not at home and do not have access to Pokerstove.

If you are past the bubble, it's a call because of the flat payout structure of the daily dollar once the bubble has burst up to the final table - pre bubble, there are valid shouts on either side as to whether it is best to call/fold, not enough information in OP to say for sure.

My 2 pence.

sactokid544 said:

So what are you saying? You fold AA and KK UTG?? AA AND KK are NEVER coinflips. They NEVER race with anything preflop.

So, you are essentially folding with 77% or MORE equity in the hand pre?? I can't think of a more -EV move...

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Actually, AA against 3 opponents is only about a 50% winner (seems like even less online)so yes, if you have AA vs 3 opponents, they are a coin flip - there's a 50% chance that ONE of the 3 opponents will beat you. KK are only 40%, maybe less vs 3 opponents, especially if one opponent is hold an ace. That's why it's important to get heads up with pre-flop monsters. Slow playing these hands is suicidal.

to sacramento kid

sactokid544 said:

So what are you saying? You fold AA and KK UTG?? AA AND KK are NEVER coinflips. They NEVER race with anything preflop.

So, you are essentially folding with 77% or MORE equity in the hand pre?? I can't think of a more -EV move...

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Hi there.....UTG is not a good position to play in....myself I fold most hands UTG simply because I have no information other than the cards in my hand...True these are strong pre-flop hands yet statistically they do not win as often as many think....AK/AQ win about 20% of the time...pocket A's are an 80% favorite pre-flop and win over 50% of the time against a single player yet drops to under 30% when facing 4 players.
opening UTG with top hand by raise...the players staying in are the ones holding middle connectors,small pairs and weak aces..playing speculative hands...all of these have a strong likelihood of busting top hands post flop...studied players know this....and if you do win from UTG usually your winnings are less than the risk involved....yet from late position the same exact hand pays a handsome pot....the hand is more disguised because players don't know if your playing a middle connector,small pair,or Ace rag...yet they will suspect those type of hands...rarely do people think you have top hand in late position with a normal open raise giving the late player advantage....yes I fold most hand UTG including AK-AQ-due no information.......information is required to be successful...there's another hand just a deal away.....ps...I'm from sacto also..living in midwest.

I think you must do call. Many players can make all-in with AK,AQ,QQ,JJ.... if you lose - dont worry, win another time.... its a POKER))))