Folding AK preflop?

Do you fold suited AK after two shoves before you? Would it matter if you folded in late or early position?

Nothing wrong with that. If you were in early position and it was shoved twice to you then its an easy fold. Late position i think its still a fold but you will on average have more equity than if you were in early.

Folding AK preflop is a skill not many players have.

Of course id depends on stacks though. But deeper i would fold. Short they can have a lot worse.

There are a few things to consider here. What stage are you in with the tournament? What is your stack? What are the blinds?

If I am short stacked, this is an easy call.

If you are near the bubble and are risking your whole stack when you know you can make the money then I might lay it down to make the money.

Anyway you look at it, you are a 2:1 favorite pre-flop with your AK.

If either you or short stacked or if either of the 2 ppl that have already pushed are short stacked I'm calling nearly everytime. Especially if the first person to shove was short sacked, the second person may be shoving light thinking that the initial shover was pushing light with his short stack

FryGuy14 said:

Anyway you look at it, you are a 2:1 favorite pre-flop with your AK.

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I don't understand what you mean here. Facing 2 shoves how can we be a 2:1 favourite? Best case scenario is dominating both hands, but more likely that we are flipping vs at least one. And if it is just one pocket pair, there is a good chance the other hand has an ace or king, which reduces our odds of hitting even more.

Am I missing something with pot odds?

ghOst said:

Do you fold suited AK after two shoves before you? Would it matter if you folded in late or early position?

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What did the other players end up having? We can make judgements then if it was a good fold. In the early stages of an MTT, i just cant fold AKs as i know there is only 1 hand that completely crushes it and that's pocket aces. Although, it doesn't mean i have not done it once or twice, but 95% of the time i would call.

redvulture61 said:

What did the other players end up having? We can make judgements than if it was a good fold.

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Are you saying that whether or not it was good decision is based on the outcome of the hand? If that is the case, how far do you take that?

Shufflin said:

I don't understand what you mean here. Facing 2 shoves how can we be a 2:1 favourite? Best case scenario is dominating both hands, but more likely that we are flipping vs at least one. And if it is just one pocket pair, there is a good chance the other hand has an ace or king, which reduces our odds of hitting even more.

Am I missing something with pot odds?

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This is not correct. AKs vs two random hands is only a 51% favorite (down from 2-1 vs one random hand).
My way of thinking is like yours - a shove isn't particularly "random" - depending on the situation you can usually figure with two shoves on the table there is a good chance an A is in the mix somewhere other than your hand. With only 6 outs you can't really afford to be spotting any.

I wasn't at the table but this one is kind of 50/50 for me. Just depends on stack sizes, opponents, etc. I do know the one time I had a triple shove in front of me I folded AK figuring I was probably down to 4 or less outs to improve. And once I folded to a complete nit who came over the top of my raise just before the final table (showed KK).

redvulture61 said:

What did the other players end up having? We can make judgements then if it was a good fold. In the early stages of an MTT, i just cant fold AKs as i know there is only 1 hand that completely crushes it and that's pocket aces. Although, it doesn't mean i have not done it once or twice, but 95% of the time i would call.

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Uh.. how about no?

Never be results oriented... What cards the villain had this one specific time isn't in the slightest bit useful to determining if we should have called or folded.

If they happened to have 27o and 4Jo... (yes it's possible..no it isn't likely) this ONE time are you going to decide to always make this call in this situation?



Edit: btw KK is a 66% favorite over AKs AIPF... I kinda consider that pretty dominated

Furthermore... as has already been pointed out, stack sizes and any available information on the two villains would be immensely useful in making this determination.

Let's say it's early in the tournament, we know nothing about either villain and all 3 of us have roughly the same size stack... I'm folding this pretty much always. I have no interest in sticking my money in when I'm at best a slight favorite (and less than 50% favorite at that... ) Against any pair QQ or less we essentially flipping, against KK or AA we are really dominated, against let's say another AK and any pair we aren't in good shape (2 of our 8 outs are gone).. best case scenarios are that you're up against let's say AQ and AJ (or something to that effect...) and even then you are only ~50% favorite... AJ and ANY pair QQ or below and you aren't even the favorite (~34% vs the pairs 42%)

MediaBLITZ said:

Are you saying that whether or not it was good decision is based on the outcome of the hand? If that is the case, how far do you take that?

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Question is more out of curiosity than anything else. However, AKs in most spots is a definite call in my honest opinion.

I sure wouldn't fold if it's a fast tournament. That's a very good hand in a multiway pot.
It also depends on the stages of the tournament. If you're near the bubble/final table, I'd think twice. But early on when trying to build a chipstack, go for it.
And as people have said, it is entirely dependent on other people's hand ranges.

"He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which"

I love this and it is my goal to have it said of me at the poker table.

to many factors to consider really.

Who are the shovers? If these guys are nits and we are deep then I fold because the chances are we are flipping at best and we dont need to be flipping deep stacked, if they are happy shoving ATC I call.

Also, blind level, tournament stage etcetc..?

ramdeebam said:

to many factors to consider really.
Also, blind level, tournament stage etcetc..?

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this ^
If you're not giving details, you're not going to get a decent answer period.

The pot odds are good here, so i call these shoves with my premium hand AKs most of the time. If im deep, i rather tend to "protect" my stack, no need to gamble so early in a tourney

Daniel72 said:

If im deep, i rather tend to "protect" my stack, no need to gamble so early in a tourney

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You need to gamble at all points in a tourney, barring unusual ICM situations, because you need more chips.

its one of those really open questions and has so many factors to consider as most of the knowledgeable people have already said

it depends on buy-in, what stage of the tournament is at, how big the stacks are, how fishy the players are and loads of other stuff already said

one good point someone made already was that if the first all in was a 10bb or less shove, the second shove might be a relatively weak hand to isolate the shorty, in which case i am much more inclined to call

i only play small buy in tournies, and early on they are alot of stupid all ins early, in which case i am probably calling also

I've done so many times depending on the blinds and my stack size and theirs... Of course, this is in a tournament. At cash tables, I guess it would depend more of the players behaviour up until this hand.

It depends on stacks for the most part if you can be knocked out or crippled id reconsider playing it bc u do after all only have ace high...also the second all in if he can be knocked out or crippled by only player 1 then id reconsider it bc he was thinking the samething you are. also 3 bet all in ranges and table position

Tygran said:

Uh.. how about no?

Never be results oriented... What cards the villain had this one specific time isn't in the slightest bit useful to determining if we should have called or folded.

If they happened to have 27o and 4Jo... (yes it's possible..no it isn't likely) this ONE time are you going to decide to always make this call in this situation?



Edit: btw KK is a 66% favorite over AKs AIPF... I kinda consider that pretty dominated

Furthermore... as has already been pointed out, stack sizes and any available information on the two villains would be immensely useful in making this determination.

Let's say it's early in the tournament, we know nothing about either villain and all 3 of us have roughly the same size stack... I'm folding this pretty much always. I have no interest in sticking my money in when I'm at best a slight favorite (and less than 50% favorite at that... ) Against any pair QQ or less we essentially flipping, against KK or AA we are really dominated, against let's say another AK and any pair we aren't in good shape (2 of our 8 outs are gone).. best case scenarios are that you're up against let's say AQ and AJ (or something to that effect...) and even then you are only ~50% favorite... AJ and ANY pair QQ or below and you aren't even the favorite (~34% vs the pairs 42%)

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you are ignoring the fact that we have better pot odds than 1 to 1, i would always take a chance to triple up if i had more than 33% equity, and against entire ranges you almost always will

What a ridiculous thread

depends on the players who shoved, the type of tournament it is, the stacks they have. I generally would call two shoves with AK unless one of the players was very tight, but thats just me, different strokes for different folks!