Flush or straight draw

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sweepnet

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Am I too much of a nit. Do you risk your game on a flush draw or an open end straight draw when someone goes all in on you at the beginning of the game. How about the middle of the game.
I alway give bad odds to call these, but seems that everyone tries it anyways.
Then, I just went AI after the turn and someone called with the draw, and hit it on the river.
I realize that if they always try it that it is good for me, since 2/3 of the time they are not going to get it, but the last couple days I have been experiencing exceptional bad luck with my All Ins. Seems like I am losing about 80% of the time, even when I am ahead at the beginning AK losing to KT , AQ losing to Q9 and so on.
 
Pascal-lf

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It's impossible to give you a general rule as to whether or not "risking your game" on a draw is a good idea - generally it's not, you want to be the one going all in with your draws so you have fold equity, but at the same time there will be some spots such as where you have two overs and a flush draw vs a crazy aggressive player where stacking off will be profitable.

Don't worry about overbetting to get people off flush draws - just betting between 2/3 and full pot will make it profitable for you when they call you off, and is also more likely to keep in other parts of their range like weak top pairs which you beat which may fold.

My best advice would be to find hands involving draws where you weren't sure and post them in the Hand Analysis section :)
 
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sweepnet

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Thanks. I guess I am just playing with a lot of fish, and see them do it all the time, and of course, it does work some of the time, so I wonder if maybe I am doing something wrong.
 
chuG

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2/3 you will win so dont do three of them before the bubble.
 
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TSM12

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I will sometimes push with the draw to get the other person off their hand, but as a general rule do not call with all in with it. The percentages are there, but remember it is still a draw and is totally worthless unless you hit.
 
jbbb

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2/3 you will win so dont do three of them before the bubble.
Lol @ this.

as for the original question, many factors effect if you should be calling with the draw. pot odds are the main factor, but not the only one.
Also shoving with a flush draw is much more desirable than calling a shove with a flush draw, as your fold equity could make this a profitable play.

For example late in a SNG with 100/200 blinds, you call a 2.5x raise in the BB with A9 spades (SB folds).
your stack is 2,300 and Villian has 3,400.

So its just you and the button, with 1100 in the pot.
Flop comes 10s 7s 3d.

This is an easy shove in this situation. The factors that make this easy are the fact that almost 50% of your original stack is in the pot, and your outs could include the flush draw (~36%, running cards for a straight, and maybe the ace too [another 12%]).
So you have about 50% chance of winning this pot if called, and he may fold up to 25% of the time, due to the fact he'd only have 1100 chips left if he called and lost.

So its many factors like that which effect whether pushing or calling with a FD is a good idea.

I suggest reading Moshmans SNG guide, as its a great book :)
 
FatCatBamboo

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From my experience, I chased a flush draw to win a freeroll once. I wasn't getting any hands and in heads up play, the lower stacked guy was playing incredibly aggressive and was starting to make a move on my chips. So once he went all in and I saw 2 aces on the flop, I pulled the trigger and hit it with a Ks on the turn.

Last night, I was close to the bubble and some guy with a pair of 9's went all in against me. I had A2 suited (diamonds) and 2 diamonds hit on the flop. I chased it and lost.

So as of now, I do not feel the need to chase flushes anymore on all-in hands. They're too risky for my tastes but I will be the aggressive raiser with them and see what I can get. If others are too aggressive, I'll just cut my losses.
 
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Whether to call all in with a flush/straight draw is going to depend on the opponent and my stack size. I.e. what kind of hand would Villain shove with and what would I be left with if I fold?

If villain is loose and could be shoving with a worse flush/straight draw or I would have draws and over cards, then I am more likely to call because flush draw and two overs is a favorite over one pair.

Also, if folding would leave me too short stacked, then I call. (This scenario only really gonna happen with AK/AQ suited)
 
Kattrine_John

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There are a lot of fish they used to go all in all the time.....Then some times you will be sitting in front of a donk who can call u any time....

but strategically speaking... you should call a all in if u have straight or Flush!!!!!!!
This situation will be good for you if you dont have very low cards.....!!!!!!! or you are not trying to make a Backdoor straight!!!!! :)
 
ben_rhyno

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There are a lot of fish they used to go all in all the time.....Then some times you will be sitting in front of a donk who can call u any time....

but strategically speaking... you should call a all in if u have straight or Flush!!!!!!!
This situation will be good for you if you dont have very low cards.....!!!!!!! or you are not trying to make a Backdoor straight!!!!! :)
TCOTM
 
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even though they are, I do not play them the same. I hate straight draws.
Risks are necessary in poker besides fun.
 
doops

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It depends. Sometimes I do chase. But most times I won't. And I prefer to be the aggressor, not the caller.

I do dislike being all-in on a chase. I definitely try to keep the pot size down but sometimes that's not possible.

When will I chase? There's no firm rule. Sometimes, it has to do with stack sizes. Or an overaggressive opponent. Or pot odds (not likely with an allin to call but sometimes they are right). Unfortunately, sometimes it has to do with me being on tilt.

I feel brilliant when I win, stupid when I lose. So I have a 1 in 4 chance of feeling brilliant and doubling up. Sometimes I like taking that chance. And I accept the possibility it won't pay off and I'll be out.

It's actually a harder choice to shove into a flush/straight draw board with TPTK or even a set. When you are pretty sure you have it now, but one more card could ruin you.
 
Pascal-lf

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When will I chase? There's no firm rule. Sometimes, it has to do with stack sizes. Or an overaggressive opponent. Or pot odds (not likely with an allin to call but sometimes they are right)

It should be to do with all of these things at the same time! :)
 
PurgatoryD

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Do you risk your game on a flush draw or an open end straight draw when someone goes all in on you at the beginning of the game.

That's the beauty/curse of tournament play... it's about survival as much as it is about getting your chips in the middle when you have a statistical advantage. Even if you go all-in only twice as a 2/3 favorite both times, if your opponents' stacks are at least as big as yours, there's a 56% chance that you won't even survive those two hands! And that's just two hands!

So yeah, especially near the beginning of a tournament, CALLING an all-in draw is probably not the best idea. But of course, it depends on all the factors others have mentioned here, i.e. stack sizes, position, payout schedule, how far you are into the tournament, how your opponents are playing, how you're being perceived at the table, fold equity, true ICM equity versus just chip equity, etc.

In short, "it depends". :)
 
MediaBLITZ

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You gotta realize that a lot of players have done a LITTLE reading and picked up the idea that a flush or straight draw is pretty much auto shove... That 8 outs or more is a great thing to have. They missed a bunch of other chapters that balance out where and when.

I confess I was one of these the first few months I played online, so I know where they are coming from. Now I do very little chasing unless other criteria are met. It was actually a weird transition, but gets reinforced 68% of the time I don't chase that open straight after the flop.
 
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