FLOP shove FISH

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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For the past week I've experienced MORE shoves on the flop than I think I have ever before in a similar time span. Maybe its because I've been playing on BETOnline a lot more than I have in the past. :confused:

Is their some semi-successful pro, turned teacher teaching this flop shove move to players who they have identified as terrible post flop players?
Possibly some popular twitch player has done this in the past to "protect his hand" and now fishy players are utilizing it?

It is 100% telling what they are shoving with. Top pair, or a set. No - not tptk - just top pair. I've made the call on these moves about 25% of the time and have witnessed about 25/75% Ace high bluff/top pair or set. Other times I see Ts and Js shoved on the flop when the flop is scary like A,K,9...... Umm who shoves on that board with Js, with 3 left to act? Yes - we know.

This is really just bad poker. Not only does that player miss out on a ton of value, they are often crushed when anyone left turns over a larger pocket pair or has the top card paired as well with a better kicker.
The player might win that pre-flop pot but unless going against other equally bad post flop players they aren't earning much else and are going to be crushed by better players who see this as the type of bad play it is and can react with logic. Also very easy to play against, unless they are bluffing - which is rare.

The only justification I could come up with this move is - because the fields are filled to the brim with just bad players who will call - and both the shover and the caller(s) are both gamblers. 50/50 I win/loose. Take the shot.
I just can't get this off my mind how terrible this play is. I don't see any reason to make this move - unless short stacked and have a good draw with more than 13 outs with 2 to come, beyond that - the players who do this move MUST just SUCK at post flop play.
Wet or dry board - this makes about as much sense as shoving preflop for 150bbs. And that really brings it all back around. This move is being done by the same level of player who shoves & calls 150+ bb shoves preflop.
This play is a very telling indicator of who are loose fish who can't solve post flop play - usually because they are calling oop and can't figure where they are when bet into with top/middle pair and crappy kickers.

I've seen some good players semi-bluff with this on a flush draw to the NUTs - the plays Ive experienced/witnessed lately are not semi-bluffs. It has been fishy I HAVE TOP PAIR shove!!!

BETOnline seems to have players who think top pair on the flop - is the NUTS. :icon_scra
Or perhaps they are just keenly aware how terrible they are at post-flop play.


I just realized this might be better placed the the rant section, though it's a quite thought provoking strategy discussion regarding tourney play.
 
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bigpappa325

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You shoved on me yesterday on me and got knock out on intertops yesterday. You did same thing on juicy stakes. Folded there. You seem aggressive to. lots of fun tho.
 
theANMATOR

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Not on the flop with tp so-so kicker

You shoved on me yesterday on me and got knock out on Intertops yesterday. You did same thing on juicy stakes. Folded there. You seem aggressive to. lots of fun tho.

I did shove on you - not on the flop and not with tp so-so kicker.

I would never shove on the flop unless I was short stacked or had a great draw. Shoving with tp on the flop - is not a +EV move - unless circumstances dictate.

I'm seeing this play every orbit from at least 4-5 different players, and have seen it all week, more than any other week prior.

I remember that play bigpappa - that was my only move because I missed! :) And that was a smart play because everything came in on the board - and you had the better hand (I assume) and you folded.
You got me later though on Intertops - I did have tptk but you had top 2 right? :)
It wasn't a flop shove though.

Sometimes I'm aggressive and other times I'm not - which one are you going to encounter this orbit?
I admit - I have to adjust from the micro events I play in on ACR - where pre-flop shoving is not just common - it is 70% of hands. Ugh.

I think I'm playing on BetOnline when you are on Juicy stakes. They are the same network if my thinking is correct.

GL in the shark week event - hope we both make it far and meet at the final table!
 
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bigpappa325

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I did shove on you - not on the flop and not with tp so-so kicker.

I would never shove on the flop unless I was short stacked or had a great draw. Shoving with tp on the flop - is not a +EV move - unless circumstances dictate.

I'm seeing this play every orbit from at least 4-5 different players, and have seen it all week, more than any other week prior.

I remember that play bigpappa - that was my only move because I missed! :) And that was a smart play because everything came in on the board - and you had the better hand (I assume) and you folded.
You got me later though on Intertops - I did have tptk but you had top 2 right? :)
It wasn't a flop shove though.

Sometimes I'm aggressive and other times I'm not - which one are you going to encounter this orbit?
I admit - I have to adjust from the micro events I play in on ACR - where pre-flop shoving is not just common - it is 70% of hands. Ugh.

I think I'm playing on BetOnline when you are on Juicy stakes. They are the same network if my thinking is correct.

GL in the shark week event - hope we both make it far and meet at the final table!

You are correct. i have to say thank you because it was you that made me decide to tweek some leaks and im smashing the tables.
 
theANMATOR

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You are correct. i have to say thank you because it was you that made me decide to tweek some leaks and im smashing the tables.
Oh - wow that's great! Now just gotta tighten up some leaks on my end. :)
 
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bigpappa325

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Ok won a few tourneys today. Took my winning of 10 over to the cash table. Was actually nice for a while. Everything was moving right along slowly. I think i like the .20 / /40 tables. seems not as many just donking. Everything is great.

Then I get quad9's. Real boost up to forty bucks what can go wrong. Two hands later i flop ace over sixes the guy pushed all in. I couldn't fold and his flopped quads took half my chips. Bummed out but trying not tilt to much. Two hands later i flop a ace high straight. Another guy pushes all in runner runner flush. down to 8 bucks two hands later I flop a set 3's. Rainbow in cards no straight and the guy pushes all in. Different guy again. Flopped over his Ace ,King suited and im like im good. Runner .runner flush. Im out of cash.

Quads almost back to back. beat after beat. You can say its normal but tough to swallow for sure. My have to change my name to the unluckiest guy in poker.

Good thing none of it was my money from my pocket. Sweat day it was and back to broke.
 
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bigpappa325

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Couldn't resist urge to go play my last fives dollars.Second hand in i get A.j. i bet and get one caller. Flop is 9.j.j. Guy bets i raise he pushes all in. he has pocket 9's. Completely broke again. Bad play, i think not. Online is induced for action. trust me.
 
theANMATOR

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Was this on BetOnline?

Couldn't resist urge to go play my last fives dollars.Second hand in i get A.j. i bet and get one caller. Flop is 9.j.j. Guy bets i raise he pushes all in. he has pocket 9's. Completely broke again. Bad play, i think not. Online is induced for action. trust me.

bigpappa were those hands on BETOnline? I have been getting SUPER induced flops on BETOnline lately.

Flop tptk - villain shoves on the flop - turns over a set!
Flop two pair - villain shoves on flop - turns over nut flush draw - hits the runner.
Flop a set - villain shoves on the flop - turns over two pair - rivers a boat.
Get a walk holding pocket Qs and folds around to me on btn with pocket Aces, I just decide to min-raise - sb & bb insta-fold. wtf?

What does anyone do in those spots? I guess I should become a Flop shove Fish! :ahhhhh:

But equally troubling is how coordinated the flops are whenever I get a playable hand and the odd walks early in events when blinds are 20/40 when holding premium hole cards......... Just odd.
 
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bigpappa325

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bigpappa were those hands on BETOnline? I have been getting SUPER induced flops on BETOnline lately.

Flop tptk - villain shoves on the flop - turns over a set!
Flop two pair - villain shoves on flop - turns over nut flush draw - hits the runner.
Flop a set - villain shoves on the flop - turns over two pair - rivers a boat.
Get a walk holding pocket Qs and folds around to me on btn with pocket Aces, I just decide to min-raise - sb & bb insta-fold. wtf?

What does anyone do in those spots? I guess I should become a Flop shove Fish! :ahhhhh:

But equally troubling is how coordinated the flops are whenever I get a playable hand and the odd walks early in events when blinds are 20/40 when holding premium hole cards......... Just odd.


No i was playing on juicy stakes. I had one hell of an evening. on the weekend warrior. I can understand loosing coordinated hands when both players have similar cards. One of my other big loses wasn't a bad beat just a cooler. He had a.k and i had k.j. we both flop two pair. No one bet till the river so i took a stab and he called. Those happen alot.

Its when he a.k and i have pocket sixes and flop is a.k6. Or my favorite when three players are in the hand the flop almost always hits all three.
Betonline is one of my favorite sites. I always run deep. I love the sit and goes there to.

I can promise you live play is slow and boring. You can go many hands and never play. Online i can count how many card dead days i have had.

I am going on two years both live and online. I still make the Saturday ride to the card house and I'm up about 28 grand this year and i still have four months left. Up around 20% from last year.. Thats with two losing weekends in a row. I'm down around five hundred bucks on line. They can say you see more hands online and its true. But if you take thousand hands of each and compare I'm willing to bet a lot of money that more monster hands happen online. Willing to bet a ace hits the board two three times more than live. My card tracker shows im more likely to get a deuce ten times more than any other card.

Unfortunately I LOVE POKER AND EVEN PLAY ON poker stars play money knock out tourneys. Only way I would play big money online is if i some how figured out the patterns as some of these have. I know this because the other day i watched this guy go in several times with craziest cards and won. He was a profitable player when i look him up on shark scope. only reason i looked him up was after a few i thought crazy calls he took half my stack when I raised all in with pocket aces. He called with 2.3 and flop 2.3.

Maybe hes a lucky player but if your winning consistently playing those hands I have to question. Funny thing i knocked him out at four so even with an edge he didn't finish. Guess its enough and ill see ya at the free rolls.
 
Bluffzone68

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Ok won a few tourneys today. Took my winning of 10 over to the cash table. Was actually nice for a while. Everything was moving right along slowly. I think i like the .20 / /40 tables. seems not as many just donking. Everything is great.

Then I get quad9's. Real boost up to forty bucks what can go wrong. Two hands later i flop ace over sixes the guy pushed all in. I couldn't fold and his flopped quads took half my chips. Bummed out but trying not tilt to much. Two hands later i flop a ace high straight. Another guy pushes all in runner runner flush. down to 8 bucks two hands later I flop a set 3's. Rainbow in cards no straight and the guy pushes all in. Different guy again. Flopped over his Ace ,King suited and im like im good. Runner .runner flush. Im out of cash.

Quads almost back to back. beat after beat. You can say its normal but tough to swallow for sure. My have to change my name to the unluckiest guy in poker.

Good thing none of it was my money from my pocket. Sweat day it was and back to broke.



I feel you

Been there
Done that

It happens all the time
And I guess to everyone even if they deny it.

No qualms about it.
 
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bigpappa325

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theanamtor got to tell ya about first tourney of the day . I flop a set and the guy pushed all in pair of jacks. Rivered a jack. Beats my set of tens.

Second tourney about five hands into I made a 3 bet and the flop i had top pair and top kicker. Guy pushed all in gut shot straight. Rivered the the 2. I'm out.

Third tourney is a jackpot free roll tourney. Fourth hand I get K.J suited. I make a hefty bet and get one caller. Flop comes out a king high flush. I check to get some action and he pushes for half my stack. Turn is another spade i feel I'm crushed since he pushed me all in but just couldn't fold the flush. Only one card beats me. Hes got it.


Same stuff day in and day out. I could do updates like this everyday. Has to be a point when you no longer see the dealing as random . If not not your the luckiest guy to hit those great hands only to have them ripped away.

Now you see why i no longer deposit. Ive seen more bad beats in one month online than any year of live play. But i do play more hands online for sure. Dont hate the game , hate the programming.
 
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bigpappa325

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aces are a joke these days

I dont have many bad calls or raises after the flop when Im not ahead for sure. Kind of a gift that rarely pays off these days. I put a lot of the losing hands because its important to see that anybody can win getting lucky short term but long term you get paid.

I dont know if i believe that online anymore. Aces hardly never win for me. Just like this last tourney my pocket aces made a set. Guy pushes hard because he made his set of 2's or maybe ace .two. I call. the turn is another two. aces over two and the guy pushes all in. You cant in any good faith tell me you can fold this hand. Now I know this is a monster hand to lose but what if I tell ya I have five or six exact run outs a week. Trust me im not the multi table playing guy as those young guns so I shouldn't be seeing this many beats like this so often.

Anybody else seeing a high number monster crushing hands?
 
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