Flips.. when to take them?

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Eclipsenz

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ok so this is just going off the tourney I was just in but I'm talking in general since theres many times you're up against the wall..

My tourney went like this..

Doubled up early, sat on my stack didn't really have any hands for 20 hands or so.. finally get AQ,

Raise the standard 3xbb blinds are 25/50

SB calls

Flop comes 5c6c7d

I check

He bets 200.. I call.

Turn comes Ad

He bets 250.. which I thought was a lil bit sus but I rereaised up to 650 he within a split second reraised another 400.. I then figure he either has a set or flopped two pair..

2 or 3 hands later I have AJ in the SB I raise standard 3bb he shoves all in.. this guy had stats of 4/4 over 30 hands or was it 40?? anyways fact of the matter is he either had AQ,AK or pockets. I was still sitting on 1.8k worh of chips so I folded. blinds are 50/100 at this stage.

Very next hand I get pocket 55s of the button. I raise standard 3bb..

BB who also has very similar stats to the previous guy iirc I think he was 7/7.. I didn't put him on pockets just a high ace so I call..

He shows AJ and wins the flip.

Now.. I know the 55 call I made was questionable perhaps why risk my whole stack on a hand that can easily be beaten.. way I saw it was this, whole table was very much shove or fold, a flip had to happen soon or later I coulda folded but what if a few hands later I had AQ again and someone shoves over the top ya know.. my whole perspective was well I'd rather bank on a nice stack to sit on with room to breathe rather than push/fold my way to the money and even if I was going well.. as I find my bubble play very strong.. very good chance I could get sucked out on in the process.. I.E I have AK, with 6-8BBS shove, someone calls with QJ and gets lucky and so on...

So yeah just asking what others would do and when do you start to take flips and was my call with the 55s a good or a bad thing.. sure its a flip but I always knew it was 50/50 and did never at one point think he had me dominated pre which proved to be true he just got lucky on the flip.
 
cardplayer52

cardplayer52

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In bigger tourney I'd start taking flip with 20bbs or less. But for the most part I'm hoping to avoid the flip by being the one shoving and not the one calling. It's hard to say when is the right time exactly because so many dfferent things should influence your dicision stacks sizes, payout structure, how many bbs you got, opponants calling/shoving range, position etc... It's best to post actual HH's in the tournament HA thread and see what other people think.
 
Shufflin

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I think it was a fine play -- it's a flip ya, but pps are slightly favoured, so you made the correct move, imo. Then again, I often end up dominated and out -- but, you trusted yr read and it was on, so good on ya!
 
dufferdevon

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I will do my best to avoid flips against a villain that can bust me or cripple my stack. Sometimes, when you get low on chips, you have no choice.
 
KINGSIN

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Are you for real?

you didnt have any hands for 20 hands, my in between is a lot longer than that.

also how are you ck calling the sb? are you like somehow between the button and small blind?

okay now lets say it happened how you say, you ck call the flop after being the pre flop raiser(no cont bet?why?), why are you ck calling with two overs? you do realize your taking 7 to 1 odds? okay why do you fold the turn when you hit your card? what were you trying to hit?(ill help you -not trips, or two pair) If I somehow got in that situation, im doubling up.

Next what are you talking about- he has AK AQ or a Pair, cause those are the hands that beat you, based on you play to this point id come over you wit 67s+ 79s+ any two above TEN, and pairs.(side note i would fold your AJ also, not a hand you want to be calling an all in with, rates right there with 55 - oh to the next point.

I understand you have coin flips, but im not a caller of a coin flip without something good, (this is m of 20+ AK AA KK, and QQ-TT in some situations, now im a pusher with about(this is m of 8 or below) 75 different hands in right situations, and thats the coin flip im okay with, see i push they fold, i win, they call im a coin flip.

why cant they have 66? it sounds reasonable, if they have that your not a coin flip youre about 4.5x worst situation.

You made a raise with 55, it didnt work FOLD move on, keep trying to make moves, tell you hit your 10bb or 8m(csi) and start pushing instead of raising, this will increase your win rates. gl
 
JohnBoyWWFC

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I'd guess he's folding the turn when he hits his card because he got RR. HE thought if he hit his Ace or Q he would be good but, following the RR he decided he wasn't. If it were me, I'd probably get it all in, but then I probably would have played the whole hand a lot differently. But, just picking on your point on why is he folding when he hit. I'm with most of what you say in your post.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Are you for real?

you didnt have any hands for 20 hands, my in between is a lot longer than that.

also how are you ck calling the sb? are you like somehow between the button and small blind?

okay now lets say it happened how you say, you ck call the flop after being the pre flop raiser(no cont bet?why?), why are you ck calling with two overs? you do realize your taking 7 to 1 odds? okay why do you fold the turn when you hit your card? what were you trying to hit?(ill help you -not trips, or two pair) If I somehow got in that situation, im doubling up.

Next what are you talking about- he has AK AQ or a Pair, cause those are the hands that beat you, based on you play to this point id come over you wit 67s+ 79s+ any two above TEN, and pairs.(side note i would fold your AJ also, not a hand you want to be calling an all in with, rates right there with 55 - oh to the next point.

I understand you have coin flips, but im not a caller of a coin flip without something good, (this is m of 20+ AK AA KK, and QQ-TT in some situations, now im a pusher with about(this is m of 8 or below) 75 different hands in right situations, and thats the coin flip im okay with, see i push they fold, i win, they call im a coin flip.

why cant they have 66? it sounds reasonable, if they have that your not a coin flip youre about 4.5x worst situation.

You made a raise with 55, it didnt work FOLD move on, keep trying to make moves, tell you hit your 10bb or 8m(csi) and start pushing instead of raising, this will increase your win rates. gl

For the first hand reason why I checked the flop when it was, 5-6-7.. its a very coordinated flop, SB could of hit that easily.. it was in the range I put him on, I thought from the get go he has two pair or has a set.. also wtf why should I fold once he bet out.. iirc I was still getting 3-1 on a call yes its only 6 outs but if I spiked an Ace or a Q I could reevaluate hence the reraise.. but he was still calling me even with an ace on the board which indiates he was strong..

I think thats fair play.

Also I think you should learn to read I never call an all-in with AJ that was the other guy..

And um when I shoved with 55s all should I say called the BBs shove with 55s since I put him on AJ I had less than 10bbs... again pretty standard.

I seriously don't understand anything in your post since you have misread what I said completely or said what I already know and do apply in my games anyways.. thanks for your "helpful" advice.. lol

And also just so you know I'm not check/calling or being a passive on a flop when its all rags.. I just knew against this player and the reads I had a continuation bet would of done jack shit. and the turn proved that he has something more than just a pair if hes pretty much showing hes willing to go all in by calling my reraise. why would he call out of position to a reraise on an ace high board unless he has something good.
 
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JohnBoyWWFC

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You thought from the get go he has two pair so you call to hit what? Hit the Ace, lose even more chips and have to fold. I guess that was his point.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Um its called testing the waters I wasn't percent sure how strong of a hand before, like I said he coulda flopped 2 pair or a set but he could just as easily have been drawing or just had the single pair where my ace crushes him, whats so bad about that you see it all the time on the tele.
 
TheKAAHK

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Um its called testing the waters I wasn't percent sure how strong of a hand before, like I said he coulda flopped 2 pair or a set but he could just as easily have been drawing or just had the single pair where my ace crushes him, whats so bad about that you see it all the time on the tele.[/quote]

Well there's your problem right there. Televised poker is waaaay different from the game actually being played. Hands are edited out, the players have live reads and alot of time to make them, and usually the televised games are short handed STT format with a winner take all payout/point system, or are of (nearing) the final table of a major.

You should really try to avoid the "well they do it on tv so I should try it too" mentality. Also, when someone is giving advice, you should take it for what it is and not give a smartass reply.

Finally, "testing the waters" is all well and good when there is no action before you, but when your opponent calls a raise, then leads out on the flop, there is no need to raise to test the waters. That's like saying "well even though I seen a shark's fin trolling along the beach, I'm still gonna go swimming to see if there's any sharks on this beach." Dosn't make alot of sense.
 
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cubixguy77

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Never underestimate the difference between being the one to make the call and being the one to make the bet in the first place. There's no reason to try to knock people out by calling unless you've got a lot of extra chips that you can afford to lose, or if you're on the cusp of a pay bracket and have a chance to advance (and again, can afford it). In general, I try to avoid flips, as the outcome is so far out of your control.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Bad players "take flips".

Good players put themselves in situations where if they do not steal the blinds or re-steal, then they flip. Flipping is the fallback plan good players have when stealing fails.

Also, post a hand history, and post it in the hand analysis forum if you want real answers.
 
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baudib1

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No comment on first hand.

You're going to have to win a lot of flips to go far in a tournament. This obviously involves not just getting it AIPF but also taking flops and outflopping/holding up against another hand that has plenty of equity against you.

When you "take flips" consider you are not playing a guessing game about his specific hand but if you want to take a flip you should be flipping against opponent's entire range.

You say the villain in second hand was tight, running 7/7. 55 is 36% against the top 7% of hands so you were lucky to be in a flip in that situation, his range crushes you.
 
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