Flatting AK from SB???

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ssbn743

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I had a couple of spots in my last tourney (MSPT Colorado ME) where I was dealt AK from the SB. Both times, the button, who happened to be Thomas Fuller, standard raised his button. I was >50BB deep and Thomas was <20BB, the BB was around 50BB as well.

I know Thomas to be very solid, obviously, but he also has a large range from the button. The BB was another regular I know well, and I thought it clear in both spots that he would be folding. As a result, I thought that raising didn't accomplish anything and flat called with AK OOP both times.

I hit an Ace or a King on the flop both times, the second time being the most noteworthy as Thomas had A10dd and I was able to extract 3 streets of value from him with an Ace on the flop. However, I also check called all streets, allowing him to catch, and by flat calling, also allowed the BB to come along with a wide range of hands. In both of these cases, the BB didn’t come along, but…

The three streets of value thing is, however, meaningless in the grand scheme and I know that. Still, I don't have a huge problem with flatting in both of these spots. It seems a good "theory of poker" play and it worked out both times. However, I also hit both flops - if I don't hit, I likely fold. While that is obviously lower variance, is it best to simply 3-bet in those spots?

Even though it worked out both times recently, it felt weird – but still seemed like the correct play somehow – thoughts?
 
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Good to me

Flatting is fine from the small blind since you have some information on your opponents. If the blinds are high I would just min-raise and worst case scenario, you steal the blind. No problem with flatting though, I have flatted before with AA and AK in the small because I knew that they would fold if I have raised.
 
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You probably have the best hand pre-flop.

Your odds of flopping a pair or better are only about 1 in 3.

For the 2/3 of the time that you don't make at least a pair, you will probably face a c-bet, out of position. It's going to be difficult to know whether you are ahead or behind.

With an effective stack of about 20BB, I'd either go all-in pre-flop, or min-3-bet and go all-in on any flop.
 
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You probably have the best hand pre-flop.

Your odds of flopping a pair or better are only about 1 in 3.

For the 2/3 of the time that you don't make at least a pair, you will probably face a c-bet, out of position. It's going to be difficult to know whether you are ahead or behind.

With an effective stack of about 20BB, I'd either go all-in pre-flop, or min-3-bet and go all-in on any flop.

So, in $1K+ events, I don't mind taking things a little slower, and routinely do - especially with bad players that can't get away from standard spots they shouldn't be in anyway.

In these cases, I was not dealing with a bad player - but I have some doubts about flatting the SB with AK regardless of player type.

My first thought is:
From a theory of Poker standpoint, flatting is fine - I think. If he could see my hand, he most definitely would not raise, so he's making a mistake. By raising, I let him out of that mistake cheaply and don't capitalize on future mistakes. Now, that comes at the risk of allowing the BB in the pot as well, and also puts me in a spot where if I don't hit the flop, I would be forced to fold what is likely the best hand to a standard position C-bet.

So, that's the dilemma, and we could probably argue for days about which way is more profitable - I still think flatting is the most profitable.

However, I'm worried about the entirety of my range. There was another hand where Thomas raised his button and I 3-bet with A4dd - in that case, both the BB and the Btn folded instantly and I didn't have to show. I 3-bet that hand because I believe flatting to be terrible - however, if I'm 3-betting A4 and flatting AK, that seems like a really exploitable hole in my game.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - flatting AK may be more profitable on a specific hand, but does that impact the overall tournament strategy profitability?
 
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you are juste unlucky,on river,,but you shioud bet on flot top ace pair,tribet or even fourbet.....
 
rckstr2b

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I had a couple of spots in my last tourney (MSPT Colorado ME) where I was dealt AK from the SB. Both times, the button, who happened to be Thomas Fuller, standard raised his button. I was >50BB deep and Thomas was <20BB, the BB was around 50BB as well.

I know Thomas to be very solid, obviously, but he also has a large range from the button. The BB was another regular I know well, and I thought it clear in both spots that he would be folding. As a result, I thought that raising didn't accomplish anything and flat called with AK OOP both times.

I hit an Ace or a King on the flop both times, the second time being the most noteworthy as Thomas had A10dd and I was able to extract 3 streets of value from him with an Ace on the flop. However, I also check called all streets, allowing him to catch, and by flat calling, also allowed the BB to come along with a wide range of hands. In both of these cases, the BB didn’t come along, but…

The three streets of value thing is, however, meaningless in the grand scheme and I know that. Still, I don't have a huge problem with flatting in both of these spots. It seems a good "theory of poker" play and it worked out both times. However, I also hit both flops - if I don't hit, I likely fold. While that is obviously lower variance, is it best to simply 3-bet in those spots?

Even though it worked out both times recently, it felt weird – but still seemed like the correct play somehow – thoughts?



If your range isn’t raising with AK, do you ever raise???
This is incredibly passive and going to loose you a lot of money in the long run. I’m not sure who Thomas Fuller is, but, unless you’re trapping with AK(which in my own opinion isn’t that great of a trapping hand since even 22 beats you unless you hit), with Btn less than 20BB, unless the BB is a dumbass calling station, I think this is a clear 3bet situation. Sizing would be dependent on the player tendencies. Since the B.B. still is left to act, and you are fairly deepstacked, And depending on btn fold to 3bet tendencies(if that’s known yet) I’m either 3betting to 12-15bb or shoving. Really don’t mind if they both fold and I can pick up the 8bb’s. However, not really excited to get called by the BB but I’m not folding if the btn shoves. In fact, there are very few scenarios here where I’m not stacking off with the btn(depending on stage). You have 2.5x his stack, late in a tournament, if I’m not near any major bubble, this hands is stacking off almost religiously. If the btn flat calls 3bet, I’m shoving every flop good or bad!!
Play enough tournaments this way, it’ll be profitable in the long run
 
mbrenneman0

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You probably have the best hand pre-flop.

Your odds of flopping a pair or better are only about 1 in 3.

For the 2/3 of the time that you don't make at least a pair, you will probably face a c-bet, out of position. It's going to be difficult to know whether you are ahead or behind.

With an effective stack of about 20BB, I'd either go all-in pre-flop, or min-3-bet and go all-in on any flop.

So you just give up every time you dont make a pair OTF?

It really depends on the opponent. If they are aggressive and what level theyre thinking on. If your limping range is balanced with bad hands too. And if they fold to a 3bet a decent ammount, then flatting AK is fine.

Being afraid of a worse hand getting there is not a valid reason to always 3bet... we dont bet to make bad hands fold, unless you like burning money.
 
drolin

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With AK on the SB I would raise would go from 3Bet and pay the all-in.

It's a very good hand to play on MTT, Raise, 3bet or All-in
 
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You probably have the best hand pre-flop.

Your odds of flopping a pair or better are only about 1 in 3.

For the 2/3 of the time that you don't make at least a pair, you will probably face a c-bet, out of position. It's going to be difficult to know whether you are ahead or behind.

With an effective stack of about 20BB, I'd either go all-in pre-flop, or min-3-bet and go all-in on any flop.

So you just give up every time you dont make a pair OTF?

It really depends on the opponent. If they are aggressive and what level theyre thinking on. If your limping range is balanced with bad hands too. And if they fold to a 3bet a decent ammount, then flatting AK is fine.

Being afraid of a worse hand getting there is not a valid reason to always 3bet... we dont bet to make bad hands fold, unless you like burning money.

I stand with you in objecting strongly to the parts of my post that exist only in your imagination. :confused:

At no point did I suggest that we should always fold if we miss, that we should 3-bet because we are afraid a worse hand will get there, or that our goal is to make our opponent fold.

If we do flat, we should consider floating or 3-betting the flop.

We raise because we want to play big pots with premium hands.

At the end of my comments, I suggest min-3-betting and shoving any flop as an option. That is the opposite of betting to make worse hands fold and folding if we don't hit the flop.


So, in $1K+ events, I don't mind taking things a little slower, and routinely do - especially with bad players that can't get away from standard spots they shouldn't be in anyway.

In these cases, I was not dealing with a bad player - but I have some doubts about flatting the SB with AK regardless of player type.

My first thought is:
From a theory of Poker standpoint, flatting is fine - I think. If he could see my hand, he most definitely would not raise, so he's making a mistake. By raising, I let him out of that mistake cheaply and don't capitalize on future mistakes. Now, that comes at the risk of allowing the BB in the pot as well, and also puts me in a spot where if I don't hit the flop, I would be forced to fold what is likely the best hand to a standard position C-bet.

So, that's the dilemma, and we could probably argue for days about which way is more profitable - I still think flatting is the most profitable.

However, I'm worried about the entirety of my range. There was another hand where Thomas raised his button and I 3-bet with A4dd - in that case, both the BB and the Btn folded instantly and I didn't have to show. I 3-bet that hand because I believe flatting to be terrible - however, if I'm 3-betting A4 and flatting AK, that seems like a really exploitable hole in my game.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - flatting AK may be more profitable on a specific hand, but does that impact the overall tournament strategy profitability?

Balance:
Your initial post indicates that you flatted with AK against a button raise against the same opponent in the same tournament twice, I think?
Doing it once is justifiable for balance, especially if you see this opponent frequently.
But it doesn't sound like you are doing this for balance now. For better or worse, this your standard way of playing AK in this spot against this opponent.
Perhaps you are balancing by playing AK this way, but raising all of your other premium hands in this spot? But nothing in your comments indicates that this is the case.

Sklansky Theory of Poker:
You seem almost certain that the button and BB fold to any raise.
I'm not sure why.
If you are correct about that, then the theory of poker could be used to justify your flat of AK.
In fact, the logical conclusion is that you should mostly flat any hand that is likely to be better than those of your opponents in this spot. Would you flat almost all of your premium hands here, throwing in an occasional raise for balance?
If so then you are playing a very counterintuitive style. Your standard play is to put more chips in the pot with hands like A4 than you do with premium hands. This seems fundamentally unsound. But maybe this is correct if your opponents rarely call a 3-bet.

However, if your opponents, like most opponents, call a 3-bet at a decent rate, by raising you have induced them to make a bigger mistake.
We don't just want our opponents to make mistakes, we want them to make the biggest mistakes possible.
 
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ssbn743

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I stand with you in objecting strongly to the parts of my post that exist only in your imagination. :confused:

At no point did I suggest that we should always fold if we miss, that we should 3-bet because we are afraid a worse hand will get there, or that our goal is to make our opponent fold.

If we do flat, we should consider floating or 3-betting the flop.

We raise because we want to play big pots with premium hands.

At the end of my comments, I suggest min-3-betting and shoving any flop as an option. That is the opposite of betting to make worse hands fold and folding if we don't hit the flop.




Balance:
Your initial post indicates that you flatted with AK against a button raise against the same opponent in the same tournament twice, I think?
Doing it once is justifiable for balance, especially if you see this opponent frequently.
But it doesn't sound like you are doing this for balance now. For better or worse, this your standard way of playing AK in this spot against this opponent.
Perhaps you are balancing by playing AK this way, but raising all of your other premium hands in this spot? But nothing in your comments indicates that this is the case.

Sklansky Theory of Poker:
You seem almost certain that the button and BB fold to any raise.
I'm not sure why.
If you are correct about that, then the theory of poker could be used to justify your flat of AK.
In fact, the logical conclusion is that you should mostly flat any hand that is likely to be better than those of your opponents in this spot. Would you flat almost all of your premium hands here, throwing in an occasional raise for balance?
If so then you are playing a very counterintuitive style. Your standard play is to put more chips in the pot with hands like A4 than you do with premium hands. This seems fundamentally unsound. But maybe this is correct if your opponents rarely call a 3-bet.

However, if your opponents, like most opponents, call a 3-bet at a decent rate, by raising you have induced them to make a bigger mistake.
We don't just want our opponents to make mistakes, we want them to make the biggest mistakes possible.


So, yes, I was certain the BB would be folding, both times. Additionally, the button, would have folded to a 3-bet both times as well. So, what I'm saying is that it was a pretty obvious flat call situation as raising doesn't accomplish anything except folding out all the combos I beat.

That said, from a "protecting my range" standpoint I wonder if I need to raise and just scoop the pot and protect hands like A4dd.

So anyway, that was the purpose of this post - I'm confident that flatting AK was correct in both of these spots but worry about the whole problem vice just these individual hands.
 
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So, yes, I was certain the BB would be folding, both times. Additionally, the button, would have folded to a 3-bet both times as well.

You've buried the lede here. This is not a thread about hand analysis. This is a humblebrag by a person with psychic powers.

Why are you so certain?

You're not a super-nit, you told us you 3-bet with A4. Presumably other players know you are capable of being aggressive in good spots without having a premium hand?

You're not depending on x-ray vision powers to see your opponents cards. You told us that the button had ATs in one of the instances. You don't think he'd sometimes call a min-3-bet against a player who he has seen 3-bet from the SB before, with a short-ish stack and an already substantial pot?

Are the other two players super-nits? I looked up Thomas Fuller, he's in the top 1000 players in tournament winnings in the USA. So he's probably not extremely nitty with 20BB, except in certain ICM situations.
 
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You've buried the lede here. This is not a thread about hand analysis. This is a humblebrag by a person with psychic powers.

Why are you so certain?

You're not a super-nit, you told us you 3-bet with A4. Presumably other players know you are capable of being aggressive in good spots without having a premium hand?

You're not depending on x-ray vision powers to see your opponents cards. You told us that the button had ATs in one of the instances. You don't think he'd sometimes call a min-3-bet against a player who he has seen 3-bet from the SB before, with a short-ish stack and an already substantial pot?

Are the other two players super-nits? I looked up Thomas Fuller, he's in the top 1000 players in tournament winnings in the USA. So he's probably not extremely nitty with 20BB, except in certain ICM situations.

Ok, you have A10dd otb and get 3-bet by a solid SB - what do you do? I fold without much thought, best case, I'd be racing. So, no, I don't think he calls a min 3-bet...he might 4-bet (depending on a lot of things) but calling is not on my list of his probable actions, he would hate even the good flops for his hand.

As for the BB, I was certain he was folding - his cards practically beat me in the pot - I was certain, I don't know how else to say it, certain....I know, I must be physic bragging; no one has ever been able to predict what one of their opponents is going to do in this game.....ever.......
 
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Ok, you have A10dd otb and get 3-bet by a solid SB - what do you do? I fold without much thought, best case, I'd be racing. So, no, I don't think he calls a min 3-bet...he might 4-bet (depending on a lot of things) but calling is not on my list of his probable actions, he would hate even the good flops for his hand.

As for the BB, I was certain he was folding - his cards practically beat me in the pot - I was certain, I don't know how else to say it, certain....I know, I must be physic bragging; no one has ever been able to predict what one of their opponents is going to do in this game.....ever.......

I play live too. If the BB is giving off strong tells that they are folding then I understand why you would be fairly certain.

Let's look at this from the button's point of view. I'll assume there are no antes. The case for the button to call a raise, or 4-bet, only becomes stronger if there are antes.

I have 20BB and ATs on the button. I raise to maybe 2.5BB, leaving 17.5BB in my stack. There is a min-raise from the SB to 4BB, and a fold by the BB, and it's 7.5BB in the pot and 1.5BB to me to call.

From a pot odds vs. equity point of view, I've got much more equity than I need. Even if I put the SB on a tight range of {99+, AQ+}, I've got 31% equity.
Even if I somehow knew you had AK but didn't know if it was suited or not, I would have 28% equity, enough for a call.
There are playability concerns, since many hands in the SB's range dominate me.
ICM also makes me more reluctant to call than I would be in a cash game.
Being suited offsets these concerns somewhat.

I don't think there is a clear answer as to the proper play for the button here. You've put him in a tricky spot, which is always a good thing. Much depends on how wide he thinks your range is, and how many semi-bluffs are in it.

That said, from a "protecting my range" standpoint I wonder if I need to raise and just scoop the pot and protect hands like A4dd.

Aside from debating the most profitable line to take in any given situation, this thinking that you might raise AK, a premium hand, to protect thin value hands like A4s, is upside down.
We play thin value hands (and bluff) to win chips in the short term, and to encourage players to call our big hands in the longer term.
I've been around for a while, and I've seen plenty of advice about protecting and balancing ranges, but I've never heard a poker authority discuss protecting the weak part of your 3-bet range by also 3-betting some premium hands.
I give you credit for coming up with a new idea.
But the reason no one is advocating this idea is that in the long run, we want to invest the most chips in the best hands.
 
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I had a couple of spots in my last tourney (MSPT Colorado ME) where I was dealt AK from the SB. Both times, the button, who happened to be Thomas Fuller, standard raised his button. I was >50BB deep and Thomas was <20BB, the BB was around 50BB as well.

I know Thomas to be very solid, obviously, but he also has a large range from the button. The BB was another regular I know well, and I thought it clear in both spots that he would be folding. As a result, I thought that raising didn't accomplish anything and flat called with AK OOP both times.

I hit an Ace or a King on the flop both times, the second time being the most noteworthy as Thomas had A10dd and I was able to extract 3 streets of value from him with an Ace on the flop. However, I also check called all streets, allowing him to catch, and by flat calling, also allowed the BB to come along with a wide range of hands. In both of these cases, the BB didn’t come along, but…

The three streets of value thing is, however, meaningless in the grand scheme and I know that. Still, I don't have a huge problem with flatting in both of these spots. It seems a good "theory of poker" play and it worked out both times. However, I also hit both flops - if I don't hit, I likely fold. While that is obviously lower variance, is it best to simply 3-bet in those spots?

Even though it worked out both times recently, it felt weird – but still seemed like the correct play somehow – thoughts?
Should almost always be re-raising pre-flop here with AK.

Its a very strong hand and you want to start extracting value.

This is also a great spot to have 3-Bet bluffs, and we need to protect those bluffs as well.

Usually vs a button raise I would 3-Bet hands like: AJ+/99+ for value and have a bluffing range like KJo/KTo/QJo/56s/67s/78s/89s
 
playinggameswithu

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If you are 20 BB deep then consider shoving.AK is rarely dominated.It still is an inferior hand to any pocket pair 43% to 57%. I just feel like calling off 1/6 to 1/7 of your stack to miss the flop 57% and get c-bet bluffed is not that great of a move. Now if you have 35 BB+ flat is the preferred choice. Careful check calling you all your opponent fold equity,drawing, and total control of the hand. Check call the flop and lead the turn depending on the texture of the board.
 
rckstr2b

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So, yes, I was certain the BB would be folding, both times. Additionally, the button, would have folded to a 3-bet both times as well. So, what I'm saying is that it was a pretty obvious flat call situation as raising doesn't accomplish anything except folding out all the combos I beat.



That said, from a "protecting my range" standpoint I wonder if I need to raise and just scoop the pot and protect hands like A4dd.



So anyway, that was the purpose of this post - I'm confident that flatting AK was correct in both of these spots but worry about the whole problem vice just these individual hands.



So you’re going to flat and be happy to play oop?
Take the initiative, especially oop, flat calling does nothing to help narrow villains range.
The only reason to flat is if you think your opponent will call a shove on the flop with overcards or draws. You’ve got to ask yourself, how is this play or any play, profitable. AKo is going to completely miss 2/3 of the time. If he’s going to cbet a large amount of time, are you going to float when you miss? Are you planning on donking the flop? There has to be a plan.
 
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I like to raise all-in preflop in that situation but at the stakes I play I supposed risking half your stack is a little less dangerous in the long run than if I was playing at a more competitive stake.
 
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So you’re going to flat and be happy to play oop?
Take the initiative, especially oop, flat calling does nothing to help narrow villains range.
The only reason to flat is if you think your opponent will call a shove on the flop with overcards or draws. You’ve got to ask yourself, how is this play or any play, profitable. AKo is going to completely miss 2/3 of the time. If he’s going to cbet a large amount of time, are you going to float when you miss? Are you planning on donking the flop? There has to be a plan.

I play live too. If the BB is giving off strong tells that they are folding then I understand why you would be fairly certain.

Let's look at this from the button's point of view. I'll assume there are no antes. The case for the button to call a raise, or 4-bet, only becomes stronger if there are antes.

I have 20BB and ATs on the button. I raise to maybe 2.5BB, leaving 17.5BB in my stack. There is a min-raise from the SB to 4BB, and a fold by the BB, and it's 7.5BB in the pot and 1.5BB to me to call.

From a pot odds vs. equity point of view, I've got much more equity than I need. Even if I put the SB on a tight range of {99+, AQ+}, I've got 31% equity.
Even if I somehow knew you had AK but didn't know if it was suited or not, I would have 28% equity, enough for a call.
There are playability concerns, since many hands in the SB's range dominate me.
ICM also makes me more reluctant to call than I would be in a cash game.
Being suited offsets these concerns somewhat.

I don't think there is a clear answer as to the proper play for the button here. You've put him in a tricky spot, which is always a good thing. Much depends on how wide he thinks your range is, and how many semi-bluffs are in it.



Aside from debating the most profitable line to take in any given situation, this thinking that you might raise AK, a premium hand, to protect thin value hands like A4s, is upside down.
We play thin value hands (and bluff) to win chips in the short term, and to encourage players to call our big hands in the longer term.
I've been around for a while, and I've seen plenty of advice about protecting and balancing ranges, but I've never heard a poker authority discuss protecting the weak part of your 3-bet range by also 3-betting some premium hands.
I give you credit for coming up with a new idea.
But the reason no one is advocating this idea is that in the long run, we want to invest the most chips in the best hands.

I can see what you're saying and don't disagree - maybe I am looking at things backwards. Still, the end result is the same as we're trying to create a range of hands we could have, so whether I'm protecting A4 with AK, or AK with A4 - the range is the same and it is irrelevant if I have A4 or AK. Which is the problem - by not 3-betting AK, I wonder if I'm damaging my overall range - hmmm, I don't know.

So you’re going to flat and be happy to play oop?
Take the initiative, especially oop, flat calling does nothing to help narrow villains range.
The only reason to flat is if you think your opponent will call a shove on the flop with overcards or draws. You’ve got to ask yourself, how is this play or any play, profitable. AKo is going to completely miss 2/3 of the time. If he’s going to cbet a large amount of time, are you going to float when you miss? Are you planning on donking the flop? There has to be a plan.

I'm planning on letting my opponent continue to make mistakes - yes, that may come at the risk of allowing the BB in the pot, or having to Check/Fold when I miss, but the upside is way higher than the 2-3BB's I risk.

Money is made when your opponent makes a mistake - not just by blindly 3-betting because you have AK. IMO, 3-betting in these spots simply folds him out.
 
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If you flat with AKo but 3-bet with A4s, their profitable play will just be to play tight when you flat and jam on you when you 3-bet. Sure you didn't have to show the A4s in that instance, but if you play like this repeatedly you eventually will and players will pick up on it. If you want to balance by sometimes flatting AKo like previously stated that's fine, but always flatting AKo is definitely not maximizing the value of the hand and exposes your bluff hands. You miss fold equity preflop and the exponential value of a bigger early pot when you hit, and your bluffs become very obvious overtime.
 
rckstr2b

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I can see what you're saying and don't disagree - maybe I am looking at things backwards. Still, the end result is the same as we're trying to create a range of hands we could have, so whether I'm protecting A4 with AK, or AK with A4 - the range is the same and it is irrelevant if I have A4 or AK. Which is the problem - by not 3-betting AK, I wonder if I'm damaging my overall range - hmmm, I don't know.







I'm planning on letting my opponent continue to make mistakes - yes, that may come at the risk of allowing the BB in the pot, or having to Check/Fold when I miss, but the upside is way higher than the 2-3BB's I risk.



Money is made when your opponent makes a mistake - not just by blindly 3-betting because you have AK. IMO, 3-betting in these spots simply folds him out.



Again, not sure what stage of the tournament this is in. I totally agree it’s profitable to let your opponents make calling mistakes, but he started the hand with 20BB. Even if you flat, now you’re in around a 2spr pot OOP. If this guy is a thinking player at all, he’ll know you miss a good amount of flops, and it is extremely profitable for him if you’re going to fold certain flops. This guys is going to shove if he misses. Especially if you’re giving him fold equity. We all have different styles of playing, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you can play comfortable with AK oop as a flat call. This play might be a little profitable but not max profit.
Also, if the dude makes a lot of calling mistakes, he’s probably going to overvalue and call the 3bet or shove with most medium to high Ax hands. Most people get itchy around 25bb or less.


To the OP:
Again these are general strategies, we don’t have stats on everybody.
Ultimately you just have to have a game plan. If you have a solid(and proven strategy) it doesn’t matter what I think.
Making the plan before shit happens is the key here, whether you’re wrong or right, just start making plans. Evaluate them later and that’s how you improve your game
 
wrabinho

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next time push all in no flatting ;)
 
DuffMcGruff

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I don’t mind a flat here in a lot of cases, especially if you have a read that the BB is folding. He never said he ALWAYS flats AK in the sb. He had good reasons to think he could get heads up w/ AK by flatting, which isn’t a bad spot to be in, even oop. He keeps his opponents range wide from the button, and depending on the type of player villain is, you can go from there. Now with that said, it’s usually best to take the standard line here and save plays like this for rare occasions, definitely not twice vs the same players. Mostly for the sake of “mixing it up”. You COULD, in theory, flat to balance your flatting range, but will it really make it to showdown very often in this spot? I’d rather take the most profitable line possible and adjust my range if I show down a hand I played weird.
 
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I don’t mind a flat here in a lot of cases, especially if you have a read that the BB is folding. He never said he ALWAYS flats AK in the sb. He had good reasons to think he could get heads up w/ AK by flatting, which isn’t a bad spot to be in, even oop. He keeps his opponents range wide from the button, and depending on the type of player villain is, you can go from there. Now with that said, it’s usually best to take the standard line here and save plays like this for rare occasions, definitely not twice vs the same players. Mostly for the sake of “mixing it up”. You COULD, in theory, flat to balance your flatting range, but will it really make it to showdown very often in this spot? I’d rather take the most profitable line possible and adjust my range if I show down a hand I played weird.

Yep, that's exactly right - I didn't say I always flat with AK in the SB. In fact, I thought it was quite an anomaly that I did so twice within an hour of each other; and with the same villain.

That's why I posted this - it seemed odd and really stuck in my mind. As I stated, I'm confident that both times, flat calling was the most profitably line - I've just been thinking about collateral impacts, so to speak.
 
Bozovicdj

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I feel compelled to add something to the thread.
Agree on the advice to go all-in with 20BB effective stack or at least 3-bet but I am still more inclined to just shove.

From all the posts here, few caught my eye:
So, yes, I was certain the BB would be folding, both times. Additionally, the button, would have folded to a 3-bet both times as well. So, what I'm saying is that it was a pretty obvious flat call situation as raising doesn't accomplish anything except folding out all the combos I beat.
In no way is this a obvious flat call situation. If what you say is true then you always need to 3-bet bluff here and AK is perfect for such situations to balance out your range.
Additionally, if you do decide to call, and there is no A or K on the board, with villain c-betting you don't know where you stand and what to do, since you say that BU is opening every time when action is folded to him, therefore has a vast range of hands in that position.

I'm planning on letting my opponent continue to make mistakes - yes, that may come at the risk of allowing the BB in the pot, or having to Check/Fold when I miss, but the upside is way higher than the 2-3BB's I risk.
This "waiting for opponents mistake" is a mistake by itself in my opinion. I guess the villain's mistake in this instance would be to bluff c-bet, and you calling him to a turn, or shoving on the flop based on some dead read.
Problem is you are not narrowing opponents range by just calling pre flop, therefore, any 3 cards coming out may have hit him, which would incline villain to value c-bet such flop. If you then decide to call thinking opponent is making a mistake, you basically become a calling station, and at what point in the hand do you give up? what do you do when on the turn villain shoves remaingin 15BB or so, and you invested 5 already pre and post flop...

To sum, flatting places you in a tricky spot on several levels, from disbalanced range, to forcing yourself to make difficult choices post flop.
 
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