Final table , 5 handed shove with any 2 cards?

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Raibik13

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We are in the money and top 5 gets paid. So bubble is busted and I have 6bb.

Chip leader in my left with 20bb. Utg+2 (8bb) limps and button folds with 11bb. Small blind folds with 7 bb. I have 93O and shove with it because I thought he would fold unless he has an ace. He called me with his 90% of his stack with K8 suited.

He wins with K. Should I have check and fold if he bets? Or shove was good? Or wait for the next 5 hands?
 
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Tigar

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I think fold and find a better spot in the next 3-5 hands,
Chip leader made a good +EV call due to your range with 6 bb being so wide
and hes getting great pot odds with a decent equity hand.
your shove is not so bad.. just feel you would definately catch a better spot.
 
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Raibik13

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It's not the chip leader who limped. If it was him then I would not shove. It was a guy I never played before the final table. He had nearly much as me.
 
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Tigar

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It's not the chip leader who limped. If it was him then I would not shove. It was a guy I never played before the final table. He had nearly much as me.

Aha... gotya.
I fell into these kind of traps myself often.
Basically hes almost never folding to any reraise just limped to induce a shove. Its not optimal over time but Works on ocasion.
He was probably happy to cash and decided to take his chances on
this akward line.
 
Carl Trooper

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I am always folding here. I figure next hand should be better than 9 high.

When 8 bb stacks limp, I assume they will probably call , and I rather get it in with a j-10 than a 9-3.
 
Mordecoke

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Yes I also do believe he limped to induce a shove.
I would also take into account that other players are just as short stacked as I am in this situation. Most likely they will make the same move you did in the next few hands and you latter up.
You have to ask yourself sometimes, is the risk worth the reward?
And as always make the most little mistakes as possible :)
 
dmorris68

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Limp/folding with 8bb is a horrible, horrible play. Unless you know this player to have a history of it, respect it for what it most likely is -- an attempt to induce a raise/shove. 93o is a horrible hand, hardly better than 72o, so you're shoving here with virtually zero equity and little if any fold equity for the aforementioned reason.

Now if it were folded to you, an argument could be made for open shoving ATC with 6bb, although I'd still probably wait for a better hand especially with the big stack to my left. You have very little fold equity with your stack against bigger stacks, so you're going to get called a decent percentage of the time and more often than not they're going to crush 93o.
 
TomLeach

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I just typed a really long answer, and hit backspace and the page went back and i lost it... so, the short version.

Why is he limping? Bad player (hes final tabled - only 5 being paid so probably small field but still probably can play a little), Misclick (ive done it), Inducing the shove from someone who thinks hes done one of the above (i think most likely).

What are you offering to a caller? Knocking an extra player out, bumps up everyone's EV quite a bit, especially in some MTTs.
On a hand basis, (im assuming youre a blind here?) the odds youre offering arent too bad, theres probably about 10BB in the pot, and calling is only gonna cost the big stack 5 (if hes SB, 4 if hes BB) or 2.5-1, and for the original limper itll cost 5 to call, 2.5-1, unless the big stack calls in which case, he has more people to fight but better odds, but hes probably happy to let the bigstack deal with you unless he has a strong hand.

Bear in mind, no one has shown strength, youre 6BB - your range is very wide, so a call isnt too unlikely.

So youre potentially expecting a caller here, given that youve not put that big a raise in... What flop are you expecting? You cant realistically be expecting to be winning, even a coinflip with two live cards would be a fantastic result for you, i cant see anybody calling your with worse.

So, once youve thought about that, do you think you should shove or wait?
(This info is given assuming youre a blind and the next hand is free)
 
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hffjd2000

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The one who limped would have called.

Our chips now has no teeth for fold equity here.
 
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somersetlad9

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should of waited for a better spot. think shoving with K+ Q8s+ or JT would be optimal play with 6bb
 
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revskip

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The limper kills any kind of fold equity you had here. I would definitely wait for a better spot. Ideally I want to push an unopened pot, the hand doesn't need to be great but 93o is not a hand I would push with unless the players acting behind me were extra nitty.
 
Propane Goat

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Since you were in the BB (if I read it correctly) I would have taken the free flop and possibly shoved if there was a 9 on the flop and no paint, otherwise check/folded post-flop.

Always be wary of people limping in EP when blinds are high and their stacks are short, I've seen people who have a habit of doing this with weak Aces but you could very well be up against a high pair or AK who wants to see somebody shove. With complete junk like 93o and a chance to see a free flop, take it instead of shoving pre. You might get very lucky sometimes.
 
el_magiciann

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Fold pre And shove with any hand when there is no action before your move, thats what i could made the most with 6BB
 
Kuphaldt

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We are in the money and top 5 gets paid. So bubble is busted and I have 6bb.

Chip leader in my left with 20bb. Utg+2 (8bb) limps and button folds with 11bb. Small blind folds with 7 bb. I have 93O and shove with it because I thought he would fold unless he has an ace. He called me with his 90% of his stack with K8 suited.

He wins with K. Should I have check and fold if he bets? Or shove was good? Or wait for the next 5 hands?

I think you should wait for a better spot but in the same orbit. Something that runs a little better. I don't mind the same play with like 910o or s because it runs better and has better chance of winning but wait for like khigh or qhigh
 
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trent32la

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I am unsure what your stack size was, however this is not a spot to shove 93o. Although you have some fold equity the likelihood this player is limp folding is slim. This would be a great spot to shove hands like KT QJ A5 etc and force him to make a bad call off. With 93o its best to check your option and take the free flop and c/f if u miss.
 
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Raibik13

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Thanks, guys. I think I should have check and see the flop. Fold if bets and wait for a better spot to shove in the next orbit with some sort of face card.

It's just that I hate being blinded out and cards are dead so practically you will be so short when you even have A10+ , you loose to K4 sort of hands.

I guess that's poker. Sometimes you need luck as well , actually most of the time.:cool:
 
PokerFunKid

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I would have check and fold if he bets. He knows you have a big range of hands with 6bbs. Hope to catch a better hand, if not, wait one more round (1bb+1sb, 4bbs left) And with under 4bbs left and you get the bb, i would shove any hand to either defend your bb or hope for luck. Ofcourse if you get a nice hand, you shove it also before you hit the 4bb on the bb
 
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WiZZiM

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the reason why ATC shoves are so good normally is due to the fact that players have a 100% range when they have not acted yet, so your fold equity is huge. So say you are in the SB and you have 93 vs this same opponent, now it becomes a great shove because we just have so much fold equity.

Now when someone limps in, they are no longer 100%, they might be around 30-40% and it's really hard to know what limpers will do if you jam on them. That said, a decent range to shove here usually is something that dominates their limp/calling range, so something like AT+ A8s+ 66+ KJs+ would be a decent range, you can go wider or tighter but that is my default jam over limpers range when short.

If you really feel like you have to fight for this pot, then doing things apart from shoving all in will generate you more fold equity usually. So stuff like min-raising preflop and jamming every flop works well. You could also jam a lot of flops like 347 or something that is unlikely to hit their range. you can also donk bet flops and get a lot more folds than just straight jamming pre flop.

However usually it's best to just give this one up, take advantage of the free flop and be happy you still have fold equity for the next orbit.
 
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