Effect of Players Sitting out in Tourneys...

sam1chips

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Hello all,

Ok so i just first want to say that this is my perception of the effect of players not showing up to tournaments, and if any of you want to dispute/agree/add on to what i say then please do!
I guess the tournaments I am referring to are the freeroll tournaments, with no entry barriers and a relatively large player pool, there are usually a decent amount of people who don't show up. Their hands are just ante-folded.
I'm sure this has happened to everyone. The tournament starts, and there are still 3 or 4 people that have the "sitting out" text over there dulled table space. There are several effects of this that I've found...

-First of all, although there are technically 10 people at the table, there are only 6 or 7 actual hands that you are worried about (because the other ones would be ante-folded) so you can ultimately play the hand as if it were 6-handed or 7-handed. This tends to benefit the more aggressive players, and the players who are more comfortable with loosening their playing ranges.

-There is also a big effect on positional play, depending on where the absent players are located at the table. For example, if there is a player who is sitting out at your RIGHT, it can benefit you because you can essentially be "on the button" for two hands in a row {when the absent player is on the button and auto-folds, it is basically like you're on the button. and then the next hand you are actually on the button}. By the same logic however, you will be first to act two times in a row.

-If there is an absent player to your LEFT, it can benefit you because if you are on the small blind, and they are on the big blind, and the table folds to you, you can raise and the dead hand will auto-fold. It is a nice spot to be in.


With absent players being forced to put in blinds, I like to think of that as "dead money" since it is coming from a "dead player" so to speak. I've found that some people may raise more when trying to steal the dead money pre-flop, and the mind game becomes similar to what you are thinking when someone tries to steal your blinds. For example, if person to your left is absent and they are the big blind, and you are the small blind...table folds to the button and the button raises x3 or x4 BBs...one of the things I'm thinking is they are trying to steal the absent player's "dead money" BB, as well as my small blind.



Ok, so I think I just covered a lot of how the no-show players effect the single-table that I am sitting at. Now I am going to speculate as to how it effects the tournament as a whole...
One of the tournaments I am going to reference is the intertops freeroll tournament. This tournament has runs twice a day, it has 250 players (1500 starting chips) and the top 8 get tickets to another tourney...
Regularly, out of the 250 entrants, at least 35-50 of them are no-shows for the entire tournament. If you can think of all of the chips in the entire tournament, there is a certain percentage of chips that are "dead chips", that are just going to be put into the blinds until the absent players have no chips left.

It is actually kind of funny. If these tournaments start at 7:00, it will be around 8:10 or so that the "dead players" end up getting actually eliminated from the tournament (due to being blinded until they have no chips left). The total players remaining will shrink from about 90 players left at 8:10 to about 40-45 at 8:20. All of a sudden.
Now think about the consequences...in the span of about 10 minutes the average chip stack will double. So if you are right around the average chip stack at 8:00, you are most likely significantly lower than the average chip stacks of present players (since at that point there are plenty of absent players with about 200 chips left).

This next part might be confusing...I'm not fully sure it is right but here it goes:
After all of the absent players get eliminated (say there are 50 people left), those 50 people are holding the chips of the 200 people that got eliminated (BOTH absent players and non-absent players). The blinds level in this situation would be signifcantly lower than it would be in the second scenario...when there are 50 people left, but all 250 people were present, and there was no dead money. Therefore, you might be able to assume that the higher percentage of people who are no-shows at a tournament, the more patient the other players can be, since the average chips will be higher and the blinds level will be earlier.



If you read all of that, thank you. I'm not sure if this can teach anybody anything, but hopefully this will at least get people thinking. Also, please comment about if you agree or disagree or don't understand!
 
Danilo

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Congratulations beautiful analysis of players sit outs.

I do not know about the percentages that represent players sit outs in a tournament and bets the hand, but i'm sure they change the whole dynamic of the game, as was posted in the text above
 
JamesDaBear

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Hello all,

Ok so i just first want to say that this is my perception of the effect of players not showing up to tournaments, and if any of you want to dispute/agree/add on to what i say then please do!
I guess the tournaments I am referring to are the freeroll tournaments, with no entry barriers and a relatively large player pool, there are usually a decent amount of people who don't show up. Their hands are just ante-folded.
I'm sure this has happened to everyone. The tournament starts, and there are still 3 or 4 people that have the "sitting out" text over there dulled table space. There are several effects of this that I've found...

-First of all, although there are technically 10 people at the table, there are only 6 or 7 actual hands that you are worried about (because the other ones would be ante-folded) so you can ultimately play the hand as if it were 6-handed or 7-handed. This tends to benefit the more aggressive players, and the players who are more comfortable with loosening their playing ranges.

-There is also a big effect on positional play, depending on where the absent players are located at the table. For example, if there is a player who is sitting out at your RIGHT, it can benefit you because you can essentially be "on the button" for two hands in a row {when the absent player is on the button and auto-folds, it is basically like you're on the button. and then the next hand you are actually on the button}. By the same logic however, you will be first to act two times in a row.

-If there is an absent player to your LEFT, it can benefit you because if you are on the small blind, and they are on the big blind, and the table folds to you, you can raise and the dead hand will auto-fold. It is a nice spot to be in.


With absent players being forced to put in blinds, I like to think of that as "dead money" since it is coming from a "dead player" so to speak. I've found that some people may raise more when trying to steal the dead money pre-flop, and the mind game becomes similar to what you are thinking when someone tries to steal your blinds. For example, if person to your left is absent and they are the big blind, and you are the small blind...table folds to the button and the button raises x3 or x4 BBs...one of the things I'm thinking is they are trying to steal the absent player's "dead money" BB, as well as my small blind.



Ok, so I think I just covered a lot of how the no-show players effect the single-table that I am sitting at. Now I am going to speculate as to how it effects the tournament as a whole...
One of the tournaments I am going to reference is the Intertops freeroll tournament. This tournament has runs twice a day, it has 250 players (1500 starting chips) and the top 8 get tickets to another tourney...
Regularly, out of the 250 entrants, at least 35-50 of them are no-shows for the entire tournament. If you can think of all of the chips in the entire tournament, there is a certain percentage of chips that are "dead chips", that are just going to be put into the blinds until the absent players have no chips left.

It is actually kind of funny. If these tournaments start at 7:00, it will be around 8:10 or so that the "dead players" end up getting actually eliminated from the tournament (due to being blinded until they have no chips left). The total players remaining will shrink from about 90 players left at 8:10 to about 40-45 at 8:20. All of a sudden.
Now think about the consequences...in the span of about 10 minutes the average chip stack will double. So if you are right around the average chip stack at 8:00, you are most likely significantly lower than the average chip stacks of present players (since at that point there are plenty of absent players with about 200 chips left).

This next part might be confusing...I'm not fully sure it is right but here it goes:
After all of the absent players get eliminated (say there are 50 people left), those 50 people are holding the chips of the 200 people that got eliminated (BOTH absent players and non-absent players). The blinds level in this situation would be signifcantly lower than it would be in the second scenario...when there are 50 people left, but all 250 people were present, and there was no dead money. Therefore, you might be able to assume that the higher percentage of people who are no-shows at a tournament, the more patient the other players can be, since the average chips will be higher and the blinds level will be earlier.



If you read all of that, thank you. I'm not sure if this can teach anybody anything, but hopefully this will at least get people thinking. Also, please comment about if you agree or disagree or don't understand!

I'm mostly subscribing so I can go over it more later. In skimming, you should also take a look at how it deludes the payouts when they're based on the number of entrants registering, not the number which actually show up.
 
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cheaptrix

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i have got a refund from a poker site because of 2 sitters in a 6max SNG. it took a few emails before they were willing to refund my money but having both sitters on my right put me at a huge disadvantage.
of course the player that was rewarded the button 3 times in a row every orbit won.

sitters can drastically change the dynamics of a tournament.
 
duggs

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i have got a refund from a poker site because of 2 sitters in a 6max SNG. it took a few emails before they were willing to refund my money but having both sitters on my right put me at a huge disadvantage.
of course the player that was rewarded the button 3 times in a row every orbit won.

sitters can drastically change the dynamics of a tournament.

really surprised you got paid out, its not their fault
 
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cheaptrix

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really surprised you got paid out, its not their fault

true but i was persistent ;) and it was stars. they are the only site that would ever do anything like that, imo.
iicr, the 2 players were disconnected during the 1st minute before the 1st hand was dealt so i told them they should change the software to cancel a SNG if any players are disconnected before the 1st hand.

they eventually just got tired of my emails, i assume.
 
vegasjj

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This is a topic that actually is of a lot of interest to me.
I absolutely HATE to play with lots of sit-outs. The worst I think are the freerolls on various ipoker sites, where u may have only 3-4 live players at a table. I have a real hard time playing against the super aggressive blind stealers. Whatever strategy I use - it seems I am out before the sit-outs.
Microgaming has it right - just closes them out after the first blind level, I wish all networks were doing that.
 
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I agree it changes the table dynamics as to blind stealing as many times you can get caught up in it if you aren't careful.I have to remind myself not to assume they are raising with air every time as you can get into a tough spot with that assumption. It is nice when they are to your left though.
 
duggs

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This is a topic that actually is of a lot of interest to me.
I absolutely HATE to play with lots of sit-outs. The worst I think are the freerolls on various ipoker sites, where u may have only 3-4 live players at a table. I have a real hard time playing against the super aggressive blind stealers. Whatever strategy I use - it seems I am out before the sit-outs.
Microgaming has it right - just closes them out after the first blind level, I wish all networks were doing that.

completely impractical, and extremely unfair for buy in events.
 
Poker Orifice

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Now think about the consequences...in the span of about 10 minutes the average chip stack will double. So if you are right around the average chip stack at 8:00, you are most likely significantly lower than the average chip stacks of present players (since at that point there are plenty of absent players with about 200 chips left).
Not sure what difference it makes in regards to what the 'avg. chip stack' is? Or what we assume to be the average.

Personally I like it when I'm playing in a VIP freeroll of some sort (or priv. freeroll) & there are players sitting out. Alot of players adjust poorly. Also a nice bonus if you're fortunate enough to get a bonus seat/position on the table in relation to the sitters. ;)
 
sam1chips

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Not sure what difference it makes in regards to what the 'avg. chip stack' is? Or what we assume to be the average.
Maybe thinking about it this way will help explain it a little better...

The average chip stack is determined by the:
Total chips in tournament
-------------------------(DIVIDED BY)
Total players remaining in tournament

In my previous example, if you are sitting at the table at 7:45 or 8:00 (BEFORE all the people sitting out have been eliminated), a more accurate way to calculate the actual average chip stack would be...
Total chips in tournament
------------------------- (DIVIDED BY)
Total ACTIVE players remaining in tournament (aka total players that are actually sitting at the table)

{{The total chips in the tournament will not change, since one person is going to end up with all of the chips at the end anyways. Some players (the ones that aren't there) you can almost consider as already elimninated, and thus not counted in the average chip count}}

When the players sitting out start to get eliminated, the total players remaining decreases sharply, and the average chip stack increases sharply. As the players sitting out get eliminated, the average chip stack that will be shown in the tournament lobby (aka the first formula), will be increasing and approaching the theoretical average chip stack of only the players who aren't sitting out (aka the second formula) until all of the players sitting out have been eliminated, and the two formulas would be equal (since the number of players sitting out equals 0)

This could have either helped or confused you more...hopefully it helped lol:)
 
quintass

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I'm mostly subscribing so I can go over it more later. In skimming, you should also take a look at how it deludes the payouts when they're based on the number of entrants registering, not the number which actually show up.
Yes yes yes, so if you cash, they are literally taking money out of your pocket. I dont like sitouts, never did. If you are sitting out, you better be deathly ill or just deathly. :confused:
:D
 
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Maybe it's just me, but I really don't understand the people who have issues with sit-outs. It's dead money. Adjust your game to shorthanded play depending upon how many live players you have at your table. Profit.

I, personally, always hope that my table has more sit-outs than any other. For those still not convinced, let's suggest an admittedly extreme scenario. It's a large freeroll MTT, every table is full of live players except one. That one table has exactly one live player and 9 sit-outs. Which table would you like to be seated at to start the tournament?
 
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I'm mostly subscribing so I can go over it more later. In skimming, you should also take a look at how it deludes the payouts when they're based on the number of entrants registering, not the number which actually show up.

Again, maybe its me, but this just seems wrong. 1,000 entrants, top 10% paid, 100 people paid out. 1,000 entrants, top 10% paid, only 500 players actually show-up, still 100 paid, but now, effectively, top 20% getting paid rather than top 10%.

Not sure if you're meaning the VALUE of finishing high or at the top; but that should be unaffected based on sit-outs. AFAIK, payout values are based on ENTRANTS, not those actually showing-up.
 
Poker Orifice

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Maybe thinking about it this way will help explain it a little better...

The average chip stack is determined by the:
Total chips in tournament
-------------------------(DIVIDED BY)
Total players remaining in tournament

In my previous example, if you are sitting at the table at 7:45 or 8:00 (BEFORE all the people sitting out have been eliminated), a more accurate way to calculate the actual average chip stack would be...
Total chips in tournament
------------------------- (DIVIDED BY)
Total ACTIVE players remaining in tournament (aka total players that are actually sitting at the table)

{{The total chips in the tournament will not change, since one person is going to end up with all of the chips at the end anyways. Some players (the ones that aren't there) you can almost consider as already elimninated, and thus not counted in the average chip count}}

When the players sitting out start to get eliminated, the total players remaining decreases sharply, and the average chip stack increases sharply. As the players sitting out get eliminated, the average chip stack that will be shown in the tournament lobby (aka the first formula), will be increasing and approaching the theoretical average chip stack of only the players who aren't sitting out (aka the second formula) until all of the players sitting out have been eliminated, and the two formulas would be equal (since the number of players sitting out equals 0)

This could have either helped or confused you more...hopefully it helped lol:)
I got what you said the first time but I still don't see why we'd be concerned with what the avg. stack is:confused: (to me it makes no difference whatsoever in how I'm playing therefore adjust not at all based on avg chipstack size, therefore not even caring what is tbh). I probably should've been more clear in my initial response. sorry.
 
Ezekiel162

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Another added factor... It might seem strange, but the thing I hate the most about a lot of sitters at the same table is that if you're playing in MTTs with a fast blind structure it stops the influx of new players being transferred to your table that you can attempt to double up on. Essentially you have to wait for the sitters to get blinded out and by that time your well behind the chip leaders and sometimes even the average stacks. This probably would only concern a person that uses a extremely LAG style of play to get ahead of the "herd" at the beginning stages which I sometimes attempt to do.

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone...:confused:
 
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If its a buyin then you paid for the seat and its up to you to choose whether to play but if its a freeroll then after the first level you should be removed. Just my opinion.
 
vegasjj

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This is a topic that actually is of a lot of interest to me.
I absolutely HATE to play with lots of sit-outs. The worst I think are the freerolls on various ipoker sites, where u may have only 3-4 live players at a table. I have a real hard time playing against the super aggressive blind stealers. Whatever strategy I use - it seems I am out before the sit-outs.
Microgaming has it right - just closes them out after the first blind level, I wish all networks were doing that.

completely impractical, and extremely unfair for buy in events.
Sorry for not specifying - i was refering strictly to freerolls. I doubt that there is any substantial numbers of sitouts in any buy-in event, not that I have seen anyway.

True prizes get diluted, I have seen situations where sitouts did make it into itm! Real small itm - but still crazy situation.

Personally - I do agree with all the points brought up to state that you just should adjust your game and take advantage of the sit-outs chips, I just seem to be outdrawn - outplayed - unnerved at these type of games way before i get any benefit. Wish someone would help me learn how to "adjust" my game properly, in the mean time - I just stay away from these games.
 
sam1chips

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Another added factor... It might seem strange, but the thing I hate the most about a lot of sitters at the same table is that if you're playing in MTTs with a fast blind structure it stops the influx of new players being transferred to your table that you can attempt to double up on. Essentially you have to wait for the sitters to get blinded out and by that time your well behind the chip leaders and sometimes even the average stacks.
Haha i understand this...imagine a table with 4 people and 6 no-show players. You don't want to play a hand with a big pot and risk getting eliminated (or getting into a situation where you could potentially get eliminated) because you know there is so much dead money on the table with the 6 no-show players! So in my opinion, you have to show restrain and settle for slowly taking the dead players' blinds and slow/steady accumulation of chip stack
 
sam1chips

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@Poker Orifice. I personally don't put a lot of weight of average chip stack into my playing decisions, but it is also calculated in tournament lobbys, and even on tv during the wsop events. im sure some people may factor it, im just pointing out the potential inaccuracies due to absent players
 
sam1chips

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Maybe it's just me, but I really don't understand the people who have issues with sit-outs. It's dead money. Adjust your game to shorthanded play depending upon how many live players you have at your table. Profit.
I hear you. Having dead blinds at the table obviously would help to be more profitable. But you said it; you have to adjust your game due to short-handed / positions-of--absent-players. Some people struggle with playing 4 or 5 handed, especially at beginning of tournaments.
...And this brings up another point. I've heard professionals say that you are supposed to play tight/reserved in the beginning of tournaments, but if you're at a table with only 4 live players, you're obviously supposed to play more loose/aggressive.
 
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But at the beginning I'm not going to be raising to take 10/20 blinds and 20/40 You're putting yourself at risk way to much for such a miniscule addition to your stack. I like to pick my spots and save my chips for when the blinds are a bit higher.
 
Poker Orifice

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But at the beginning I'm not going to be raising to take 10/20 blinds and 20/40 You're putting yourself at risk way to much for such a miniscule addition to your stack. I like to pick my spots and save my chips for when the blinds are a bit higher.
But if players in blinds are weak then why not raise their blinds to play pots w position vs. them? It can also help to set yourself up to get paid off large on monsters... > if you're incessantly raising you're more likely to get played back at or to get monsters paid off. (fwiw, in some games (ie. CC) I'm raising constantly in early levels 'if' situation warrants it (ie. weak'ish' players in blinds)).
 
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But at the beginning I'm not going to be raising to take 10/20 blinds and 20/40 You're putting yourself at risk way to much for such a miniscule addition to your stack. I like to pick my spots and save my chips for when the blinds are a bit higher.

if your fortunate enough to have the button numerous times because of sitters then i would play everything on those hands. you can even limp (and i would often on the button) and take the pot post flop on favorable boards.
most low limit players like to see a flop and are willing to give up small pots when they miss so this strategy in low stakes or freerolls works well.
 
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