Early blind SnG play

fletchdad

fletchdad

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I have been playing more lately, and was wondering what everyone's take is. I was gonna post some hands, but in this case think I just need to generally describe the situation.

Early blind levels SnG, mainly 2$ buy ins. What do you all do in EP with low PP from 22-55 and no action yet?

And in LP or CO or button, and all is folded to you?

Same thing with BW suited like KQh, or QJs? These mainly LP, as I am almost always tossing them in EP.

I have been tossing all the above in EP. I am raising LP but often have no reads, should I be just avoiding these hands altogether in low blind play? At the 2$ SnGs, people will often call in SB or BB with weird stuff like K4os and whatever, so I am often tempted to raise on the button with a decent hand like KQh, or even low PP.

If I raise say 4c4d on the Button and get called from BB, and have a dangerous flop, say Ah Jh Ts, and BB checks is c betting a must (no read on BB)? 1/2 pot, and a fold to the RR? Checking after the PF raise just seems so wrong.

Is a min bet from BB a fold or a raise from me? These are all situations where I have no real read.

I know I am being general but I think you get the idea of the type of situation.
 
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WiZZiM

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I have been playing more lately, and was wondering what everyone's take is. I was gonna post some hands, but in this case think I just need to generally describe the situation.

Early blind levels SnG, mainly 2$ buy ins. What do you all do in EP with low PP from 22-55 and no action yet? Depends on stakes, but at the $2 level, theres enough donks to open limp small pairs (22-99) What were aiming to do is have plenty of bad players behind us call, so when we hit our set, were more likely to get paid off. I'd even class pkt 10's as a 'small pocket pair' and probably limp from EP, raise from M-LP.

And in LP or CO or button, and all is folded to you?Now i start raising, as the value of setmining with bad players behind you is a lot smaller, so i come in for a std raise.

Same thing with BW suited like KQh, or QJs? These mainly LP, as I am almost always tossing them in EP.Qjs is a fold in most positions, perhaps the button or CO is the latest you want to open hands like that. They are almost always a fold in EP and MP. You can limp with them if there's enough players already limped in. Like 9 man table, 5 people limp in, your in the SB with KQs, sure, call 10 to see a flop.

I have been tossing all the above in EP. I am raising LP but often have no reads, should I be just avoiding these hands altogether in low blind play? At the 2$ SnGs, people will often call in SB or BB with weird stuff like K4os and whatever, so I am often tempted to raise on the button with a decent hand like KQh, or even low PP. It wouldn't be a huge deal if you just folded in these spots, your not missing out on too much. The trade off with being loose early is, we are probably getting called wider late. And it ristricts our multitabling capabilities. Whereas tight, we probably gain a little more fold eq when we want it, and we can play more tables, gaining a better hourly rate.

If I raise say 4c4d on the Button and get called from BB, and have a dangerous flop, say Ah Jh Ts, and BB checks is c betting a must (no read on BB)? 1/2 pot, and a fold to the RR? Checking after the PF raise just seems so wrong. Generally and this depends on board texture and player calling ranges, but against one opponant we want to cbet a very high %, but more than one, we generally don't want to fire, unless it's a really dry board that doesnt hit ranges (662 rainbow, for example.) In the above example, we probably don't want to cbet a hugely wet board too often without a hand, were going to get looked up too much, raised etc.



Is a min bet from BB a fold or a raise from me? These are all situations where I have no real read.Clarify.

I know I am being general but I think you get the idea of the type of situation.
..
 
fletchdad

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Thanks WiZZiM as always.


did you mean clarify this: "Is a min bet from BB a fold or a raise from me?"

it was a carry over from the situation below.

"If I raise say 4c4d on the Button and get called from BB, and have a dangerous flop, say Ah Jh Ts, and BB checks is c betting a must (no read on BB)? 1/2 pot, and a fold to the RR?"

So I meant w/o a read on the BB am I raising or folding to his min raise on the above flop with my 44?
 
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Low PP Early: With the blinds low, I think it's ok to open limp here. if someone re-pops you, easy to get away from.

LP or CO Low PP Early: I'd open with 3-3.5 BB. If someone flats you may still be ahead but if you get resistance post flop and you didn't mine a set, also easy to get away from.

KQ and QJ are trouble hands, but unopened might be good for an occasional raise LP early on.

As for the 44 raise, sure...it feels wrong. But you win more money in poker by the hands you fold, although that sounds strange. You could lose a lot of money continuing with this board texture, so you're saving money by throwing it away.
 
Wardo420

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When playing low pocket pairs early in the sit and go you really need to know how the table is playing. If there are a lot of limped pots pre-flop I think open limping is fine, but if the table is rarely seeing a limped pot I lean more towards just letting them go and on occasion opening for a standard raise.

When in later position, like WiZZiM said, I think you need to open for your standard raise if folded to you. If the pot is already opened I will usually just flat call in position planning to hit a set or fold.

The safe play with KQ and QJ is just to fold since you will often only be getting calls from a hand that dominates you or flipping vs. a pair. But, like all things poker related, this is very situational depending on how the opponents in the blinds are playing, your table image, etc. (though at these lower stakes table image only goes so far.)

In the situation you stated I think you should check behind here and hope for a 4, even then I would still play it cautiously. I dont think you will be getting very many folds in this spot. If the BB donk bets I think its a fold vs. a player you have no reads on with a board that wet. At least thats what I have been doing as it seems to happen a lot to me.
 
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As you move up in stakes you might want to re-evaluate limping in EP with low and maybe even middle pocket pairs. You are more likely to get raisers instead of callers behind you and you will just be spewing chips unnecessarily.
 
cardplayer52

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Fold low PP's from ep-mp i'd even limp or fold them from lp. Fold all the BW hands too. Although BW are ok to limp in lp with. There is a common misconception that lower stakes SNGs are full of loose passive players and it will pay off to setmine w/low PP's from ep but I've found the opposite to be true. Setmining w/low PP's is a huge leak at these stakes. Player are definately loose at these stakes but no were near passive. The only PP i'll limp in ep with is AA then I shove when it's raised and it's always raised. I catch so many players willing to stack off with what ever junk the happened to raise me with from the button. lp w/BW's i think its fine to limp as players again will be more than willing to stack off w/2nd pair. But it fine to fold those as well.
 
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Fold low PP's from ep-mp i'd even limp or fold them from lp. Fold all the BW hands too. Although BW are ok to limp in lp with. There is a common misconception that lower stakes SNGs are full of loose passive players and it will pay off to setmine w/low PP's from ep but I've found the opposite to be true. Setmining w/low PP's is a huge leak at these stakes. Player are definately loose at these stakes but no were near passive. The only PP i'll limp in ep with is AA then I shove when it's raised and it's always raised. I catch so many players willing to stack off with what ever junk the happened to raise me with from the button. lp w/BW's i think its fine to limp as players again will be more than willing to stack off w/2nd pair. But it fine to fold those as well.
Good, we don't want them to be passive... anyways i don't want to get into a big debate, as it really isn't missing out on much by just folding in the early levels. but open limping at lower stakes with pp's is a good play. It may differ on tilt when the only level we can really do that is 15/30. But on stars we have two levels 10/20 and 15/30.

And i really don't get your rationale for folding them in EP and limping with them in late, and limping aces is a bit silly, but whatever..

Fletch, the early game really isn't a huge deal. The majority of your ROI comes from middle blind and late/bubble play, that's where making correct decisions is crucial. As long as your not overly spewy in the early part of your game you should do fine.
 
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WiZZiM

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Thanks WiZZiM as always.


did you mean clarify this: "Is a min bet from BB a fold or a raise from me?"

it was a carry over from the situation below.

"If I raise say 4c4d on the Button and get called from BB, and have a dangerous flop, say Ah Jh Ts, and BB checks is c betting a must (no read on BB)? 1/2 pot, and a fold to the RR?"

So I meant w/o a read on the BB am I raising or folding to his min raise on the above flop with my 44?
folding, everytime, what are you ahead of?
 
Poker Orifice

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Thanks WiZZiM as always.


did you mean clarify this: "Is a min bet from BB a fold or a raise from me?"

it was a carry over from the situation below.

"If I raise say 4c4d on the Button and get called from BB, and have a dangerous flop, say Ah Jh Ts, and BB checks is c betting a must (no read on BB)? 1/2 pot, and a fold to the RR?"

So I meant w/o a read on the BB am I raising or folding to his min raise on the above flop with my 44?


Typically on a board that has a 'J' & a 'T' (and you've wiffed) I would just check behind.... J-T-x board generally hit their range pretty hard.
If it were a board like A-9-3 , I would c-bet all day long (repping the A). It depends though, alot of times you get HUGE loose calling stations in the micros, who are going to call you down w 66 on a A-9-3 flop.. because they have a REALLY hard time of letting go of a hand once they've invested some chips in the pot. Against these guys just play straightforward and play your big hands fast (they'll still pay you off... it's like they're not capable of putting you on a range of hands... they're only seeing their own two cards (LOOK.. I've got a pairzzzz).
I was in an MTT today, MP raises... LP calls.... I flat with 99 in SB. Flop comes T-8-8,... I consider my options... I check... MP cbets real small (2x).. LP calls... I raise (we were all pretty deep).. they both call. Turn 'Q'.. I check.. MP leads out ~1/2pot.. LP calls.. I fold.
River 'A'.. MP puts out a big value bet.. LP raises.. MP ships.. LP calls. LP had A6o (yup... he calls that flop 3way to obvious strength??).. MP held T8s and had flopped a boat, lol. Just makes ya realize.. "some don't f'n think about your hand at all (I gots da Acezzz..... I callzzzz!)"
 
Poker Orifice

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Preflop - if in doubt -> fold.
As Wizz stated, micro sng's... it's about getting to the mid-levels & bubble. If you sit back & watch a bunch of tables.. you'll often see guys folding, folding, folding.. til' down to 1100 chips, then the pile goes in & they more than double. blinds go up, aggression goes up, pick good spots and get the pile in. most newer players try to play 'too much poker'... there's not a whole lot of poker to them tbh.
 
cardplayer52

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Good, we don't want them to be passive... anyways i don't want to get into a big debate, as it really isn't missing out on much by just folding in the early levels. but open limping at lower stakes with pp's is a good play. It may differ on tilt when the only level we can really do that is 15/30. But on stars we have two levels 10/20 and 15/30.

And i really don't get your rationale for folding them in EP and limping with them in late, and limping aces is a bit silly, but whatever..

Fletch, the early game really isn't a huge deal. The majority of your ROI comes from middle blind and late/bubble play, that's where making correct decisions is crucial. As long as your not overly spewy in the early part of your game you should do fine.

I was mostly saying BW's are ok as you have some chance of position and some pot control. I haven't gone through my database for this but off the top of my head I would say my ep limps get raised over 90% of the time easy(actually in the early half of the day players are more passive here at night) it's not that they won't stack off when I hit my set it's I rarely have odds to setmine. I do agree pokerstars pllays alot differnetly than fulltilt. But yes I highly recommend limp/shoving AA from ep in low blind at the $2s. You won't believe how often you will triple up in the first level. At the $2s players won't ever give you credit for a big hand when you limp/shove or even check/raise the flop. Even winning regs at this level will raise/call shove w/hands like JJ or QQ.
 
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fletchdad

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Thanks all of you for the input! Its input from players like you that makes CC so cool!:cool:
 
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