Draws in early phases of MTTs

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Kubec7

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Hey guys, I have a dilema. Yesterday I played one tournament - 54 players, prizepool 2500€. The structure was strange, because prize was 250€ for first 10 players. Maybe first 5 hands of tournament were shitty, i folded all, but next hand I was dealt As Js on UTG. Guy on hijack raised preflop about 4BB, I called and button called also. The flop came 8s 9s Th. At this moment I had openended straightdraw and also a flushdraw, plenty of outs. Hijack bets 1000 (about 80% of pot). I raised him to 3500. After a while, button pushed all in and hijack also pushed (our stacks were almost the same, preflop about 10 000). Now it was my decision. If one of them has QJ, the nutstraight, I still have about 35% for nutflush and pot odds 1:4,5, as the rest of my stack was about 6000 and pot was already about 26000. I decided to call, they showed both 67 straight. Turn and river didnt bring any queen, seven or spade, so I was out of the tournament.

Now the question: Altought in cash game, the decision would be clear call with these pot odds, I´m not sure if it´s good to play this way in tournament. Because even I have great chance to win a mega pot, there´s still bigger chance to be kicked out of tournament as the board don´t bring one of my outs. What should I do?
 
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RamdeeBen

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If your dealt AJ utg, I don't mind opening it, also folding is fine by the way this early. However, when a HJ 3bets pre, you should NEVER be calling. This is the biggest mistake of the whole hand, just fold pre flop AJ is a terrible hand to play OOP when facing a 3bet.

Because you have called you then you flop so well; I'm never folding this flop. You have now created such a bad spot where you're now forced to continue because you didn't fold pre flop.

Gamble, hope to get lucky.
 
steveiam

steveiam

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A raise from utg with AJ suited is ok but i would not be calling a 3bet from the HJ pre flop.To many things can go wrong and its early in the tourney, you will find better spots to get your chips in if you are patient.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

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It's the outs baby, the outs.

I think for me, it's simply what kind of action comes on the flop(1), do I have the other player/s covered (2), could I be drawing dead (3), and how many outs do I have? (4).

I despise the "big laydown", and actually take advantage of others who just love making the big laydown. However, MTT's are all about survival. If it's early and not a lot at stake, or I'm not too invested preflop, I don't mind laying down a big draw. And the more players in the pot, the worse it is. So, heres my plan, and it has saved me a few times;

I get more aggressive when my draw is backed up with top pair, a backdoor set of flush, or ie; more outs! You actually had 2 players fighting for the dumb end of the straight! Can it get any better? Actually, yes.

If I flop an open ender for a st8, but also have top pair and a back door flush or trip possibilities, I am far more willing to call/raise. That way, if someone already has a st8, I still have outs. (8 for the st8, 9 for the flush-less any flush cards that are part of the st8, 2 for trips, 3 for two pair, around 22 outs in all, yea-haw) If you can beat my 22 outs with two cards to come, and you have zero outs, well zippy, good luck!

If it's only the open end st8, forget it. Thats only 8 outs, and even if I make it, I still might have to chop. With two people in your pot, odds were really good that not only did one have the dumb end (bottom), one already had the smart end (top), or a set, at least. What else could they have with that flop?
 
SyKoChiller

SyKoChiller

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The first 3 posters hit it on the head. I find myself in these situations frequently in tournaments and more often than not I regret calling. Tourneys and Cash games are 2 different beast and require different approaches. You will have to lay down way more good hands in a tourney since they are all about survival. It kills me to lay down a solid hand with so many outs too, but I've learned to accept this fact of life after many beatings. After having spent 2 hours or more in a tournament its better to be safe than sorry.
 
Michael Paler

Michael Paler

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Dude, you are from my old town!

The first 3 posters hit it on the head. I find myself in these situations frequently in tournaments and more often than not I regret calling. Tourneys and Cash games are 2 different beast and require different approaches. You will have to lay down way more good hands in a tourney since they are all about survival. It kills me to lay down a solid hand with so many outs too, but I've learned to accept this fact of life after many beatings. After having spent 2 hours or more in a tournament its better to be safe than sorry.

I thought you sounded smart....you are from my old neck of the woods (Covington, KY/ Cincinnati, OH.). I bugged out in the mid 90's for the Navy, still have family in Erlanger and a little deeper south in Ky.

Small world, eh?:beer:
 
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groggy44

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well, if you are going to call a 3bet oop, short of flopping the royal, it's not going to get better for me. You ran into a semi cooler since both of them had already made the str8. however if they had an over pair, or tptk or something like that, or even just a gut shot, i think you would do well to shove the flop. You won't get made hands to fold but that is poker.
In a deep stack tourney with easy going level structure(not that i have much experience) there are just so many better spots to get your money in. If you are going to play AJs utg, i would try and go for pot control preflop. Just limp. Sure, you're be raised, but you have a much smaller pot and it would have been much easier to let 2 maniacs shipping it in with the ass end of the straight fight over your 400 chip investment.
 
NeverEnough

NeverEnough

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A raise from utg with AJ suited is ok but i would not be calling a 3bet from the HJ pre flop.To many things can go wrong and its early in the tourney, you will find better spots to get your chips in if you are patient.
+1
 
Randall McMurphy

Randall McMurphy

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So 1st through 10th each paid 250 Euro?

That's a satellite structure so ITM is everything. Play tighter than a MTT.

I had a hard time reading the play you wrote but the 3500 raise seemed ill advised this early and with the structure.
 
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cashwig

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Im confused... if your under the gun how can you be raising the highjacks flop bet with the button shoving after you act?Then you say the highjack calls the buttons all in befor you act leaving the decision on you?Did i miss something? shouldn't you act first ,then the highjack and then the button? im sorry if this comes off as rude(its definately not meant as such) im just trying to better understand the situation.
 
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shannonknowles

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I would of folded pre flop as its early in the MTT. I defiantly wouldn't go all in this early either chasing cards in a multi-way pot with two other players already all in.
 
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limochas

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I rarely chase, and would never call an all-in so early in mtt.
 
NateVest

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If your dealt AJ utg, I don't mind opening it, also folding is fine by the way this early. However, when a HJ 3bets pre, you should NEVER be calling. This is the biggest mistake of the whole hand, just fold pre flop AJ is a terrible hand to play OOP when facing a 3bet.

Because you have called you then you flop so well; I'm never folding this flop. You have now created such a bad spot where you're now forced to continue because you didn't fold pre flop.

Gamble, hope to get lucky.

I agree with this post the most out of the thread. Well written, I could not have said it any better. This is the best advise someone could give in my opinion. This is really getting me excited to be apart of CC looks like a lot of solid players here with sound advise.
 
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GNARBURGS

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Im confused... if your under the gun how can you be raising the highjacks flop bet with the button shoving after you act?Then you say the highjack calls the buttons all in befor you act leaving the decision on you?Did i miss something? shouldn't you act first ,then the highjack and then the button? im sorry if this comes off as rude(its definately not meant as such) im just trying to better understand the situation.


This? He made it 4bb so you min raised and he clicked it back? or you limped and he isod 67? Probably shouldn't be limping this hand if so, and if you raised and he 3 bet I fold.

If limp called I am never folding this flop, ul you didn't get their haven't ran their ranges but as played I think we have to call given the price we are getting is +ev even if they have sets, might be a bit off havent ran it but still just very confused as to what happened pre.
 
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baudib1

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There's no such thing as "early" in an MTT.
 
dj11

dj11

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Draws are the reason the old adage ;

"You can't win a tourney in one hand, but you can sure lose a tourney in one hand!"

is still relevant.
 
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AvaloNNN

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There's no such thing as "early" in an MTT.

This.

If you want to win an MTT, you must take your chances. You can't play just to survive. That's wrong approach. I don't know about this particular tournament, because of this payout structure (you should probably play more tighter and fold preflop in this situation), but in standard MTTs you must be very aggressive if you want to win.
 
joker131

joker131

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yep should have folded as soon as the raise came in
 
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Henreiman

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You play to win. You take your chances. Ignoring whatever preflop play happened, this is an easy call.
 
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inflnlte

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Once you call the raise, you can't get away from it. A huge draw and you just got unlucky or didn't get lucky, whichever way you want to look at it. Either fold to the raise preflop or play the way you did. I'm not sure exactly how the structure of the tournament was but I dont mind playing AsJs early in the tournament.
 
spunka

spunka

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When you raise HJ postflop you must all ready have decided to go with the hand you have, you must know the he either have a made straight top or bottom, a set or maybe 2 pair. So you are on a Draw, if you lose that you're out, poker is a game of chance.
But if you're in doubt as if you should / would go with the hand WHY raise HJ and give him the opportunity to come over the top on you, why not just call, and see what Btn. do, if he shoves you can easy fold IF you don't want to gamble.
 
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baudib1

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there's no folding this flop ever.
 
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