Down with teamwork?

In tournament poker, when the small stack goes all-in, usually two or three people call and then check around to have the greatest chance of knocking the small stack out.
More and more I've been seeing and coming up against people who will bet after the flop, pushing the others out, and often bringing the small stack right back into the game when, had the usual rounds of checking been done, he would have been out.
Does anyone have a reason for this; a change in strategy, inexperience, stupidity, other?
To me it seems stupid - why risk saving someone who could come back and knock you out later?

I've always thought it is usually a stupid thing to do from the perspective of the post-flop raiser. I think it stems from inexperience on their part - they think it's a clever steal whereas, as we know, even if you currently have the best hand, it's best to check down to prevent short stack subsequently outdrawing you.

The only time I might bet into the flop is if I flop the nuts and feel I can get someone to come along. I'm might get shot down for saying that though - not sure what people think about that? Be intersted to know...

This has come up before. If I am holding what I believe to be the nutz, it is a tourney everyone for themselves I will bet the flop. If I am not sure I will check it down.
It is frustrating when someone bets and knocks you off the winning hand to double up the shorty.

I absolutely do not subscribe to the "unwritten" check-down rule when SS is all-in. Some guys will go ballistic when they fold the winner and a the small stack walks... but I'm not playin to make their stack bigger, I'm playin to make my stack bigger. If I can isolate the AI I have better odds of takin the pot down. I ABSOLUTELY WILL take advantage of you thinking I will only bet NUTS.

Stix

Yeah but if your going to isolate...ISOLATE WITH A HAND AT LEAST.

I too have seen lots of people try to force others out in the situations you have described. Quite a few times I see them trying to force them out with a complete bluff...which makes absolutely no sense at all when it is obvious the others will check it down.

If your at the final table of an MTT, it makes alot more sense for two people to gang up and then check it down on a short stack all in, then go one on one.

People with AK are typically the worst offenders. They'll have nothing on the flop in a 3 or 4 way, then raise big with air, and they typically end up doubling the shortstack up.

Very annoying.

If there is a side pot, then it's worth trying betting. If the side pot is empty, then it's silly to try and bluff at the pot in this situation, since you probably can't win at a showdown. At least with a side pot, when you go to showdown you'll at least rake in some chips.

In 1:1 side pot / main pot situations making all others fold seems profitable enough for a bluff against opponents that can fold.

Added - If I have a hand I want to gain maximum chips - that's given anyhow.

NEVER EVER EVER, BET INTO A DRY SIDE POT!!!!

Click to expand...

Edit ^^: call with set+ ?

NEVER EVER EVER, BET INTO A DRY SIDE POT!!!!

This must have been posted after Buck logged off.

TPC said:

NEVER EVER EVER, BET INTO A DRY SIDE POT!!!!

Click to expand...

I'm a big believer in checking it down, to a point. If I flop top 2 pair and their is a flush draw out their then I will protect my hand or if I flop the nut straight and want to protect from a flush or higher straight draw from hitting. However TP TK I will check all day and many times I have checked it down with the nuts only to have some idiot bet into me then I'll shove he will call with TP and I eliminate 2 people and tell the other guy just so you know I would have checked it, but since you wanted to be an idiot your gone also.

Now I have seen this no less than 4-5 times. Player is all in with 2 callers and on the flop one of the other players bets big with air and the all in player doubles up and then ends up eliminating the player that bet to keep him in the game, and had he not bet the all in player would have been eliminated. I love that when it happens.

Think of it like this if you check it down and eliminate the player your that much closer to the money or you have moved up in money.

I would only worry about isolating the 'small' stack when deep in the money or a sat with a determined no of seats paid and bubble approaching.

otherwise I will aim to increase my stack ..

have done and will when I have a big stack shove into a pot where I know the 'small' stack has a wide range and a few limpers come along as I want to be HU ..

ie..I have 20,000 chips..blinds 100/200 ...small stack with 1200 chips shoves and stacks of 10,000, 14,000 etc call I will shove esp if near the bubble with 55+ AK-A10 KQ-K10 QJ-Q10 J10....the other stacks likely fold and I am playing HU for 3600 chips (almost 20% increase to stack) with 3/1 pot odds

doesnt make you popular though

There are some situations where you flop top pair and I believe you need to protect your hand in those situations and isolate the small stack to avoid someone other than the small stack catching up to you. The other situation is when you have the nuts or close to it. It is fine to value bet on the end in that situation as well. What some players don't realize is that you can't bluff out someone who is all-in but you can help him stay in the tourney.

Only bet when you're more or less certain you have the best hand, bluffing is pretty much useless in these pots.

If I improve AND I feel like I have the best hand AND there's a side pot, I'll bet.

It's called "cooperative play" by Dan Harrington in his tournament series, and yes it matter when your own the bubble let's say or a SNG. With so many people left in the tournament, I don't see much strategy. I will have a wider range to call the short stack down anyway with and all the better if they want to let me check my marginal hands down. If I have something somewhat decent I will bet like 30 % of the pot or something just to get value.

Thank you...
I'll give more thought next time rather than blindly checking.

tookie21 said:

In tournament poker, when the small stack goes all-in, usually two or three people call and then check around to have the greatest chance of knocking the small stack out.
More and more I've been seeing and coming up against people who will bet after the flop, pushing the others out, and often bringing the small stack right back into the game when, had the usual rounds of checking been done, he would have been out.
Does anyone have a reason for this; a change in strategy, inexperience, stupidity, other?
To me it seems stupid - why risk saving someone who could come back and knock you out later?

Click to expand...

I agree, but if you were to get a straight, trips, or even the nuts, why not make a reasonable raise of 3-4 x BB?

Is this really bad to make a raise assuming you hit a much stronger hand? Should I simply continue to check?

Thought this was acceptable...expert advise only please along with explanation.

TY, Wally

PooffyFooffy said:

This has come up before. If I am holding what I believe to be the nutz, it is a tourney everyone for themselves I will bet the flop. If I am not sure I will check it down.
It is frustrating when someone bets and knocks you off the winning hand to double up the shorty.

Click to expand...

Poof, any time that you bet you have what you believe is the nuts

Mase31683 said:

Poof, any time that you bet you have what you believe is the nuts

Click to expand...

Lol no sometimes I just toss one up if I am bored here and there.
What i meant was I am not going to try isolate the shorty if my hand is marginal.

A whole lot of abuse comes if someone pushes me off the hand that woulda beat the donk and since I thought he had the nuts.. i.e hmm going all in on the turn/river.. just to see he had nothing and doubled the ss up.. really infuriates me..

No sense to push someone off when you don't have the nuts while a ss is all in. Dunno if it happens alot at higher limits but micros, oh yeah

i love team work, triple me up and ill be happy, i hate getting doubled up i love getting tripled up

It all depends on where you are in the tournament from making it into the cash. I believe in checking it down when means moving up in money. But if I have a made hand there are times where I will bet it.

Much harder thing to live down when youre at a regular live game and you do it to people you play with every week, push the others out then lose with AK.

Can be funny as well depending which of your friends you do it to.