Double Up SNGS on Poker Stars - which levels are easier?

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Corey

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Hey everybody, I've been playing a LOT of double up sit and goes, and so far I have a winning record on Cake and Merge at the $10 level.

I deposited $100 to poker stars to try them out, as it is totally obvious from PokerScout that Poker Stars gets at least 10x the traffic than either Cake or Merge.

So far, I have lost about $35 on the $5 Double Ups there (Turbo). The Turbo on PS compares to the standard Cake & Merge tournaments almost one for one in the blind escalation structure, and even the timing between blinds (5 minutes for PS, 6 minutes for Cake).

My question is, do you think the $10 DU's on PS are easier than the $5 DU? My friend Randall who introduced me to DU's said he thought the $10's were easier on Cake than the $5's, simply because the people playing the $5 ones were SO desperate for money they played tighter than the free wheeling $10 players. But he didn't have any data to back up that assertion, just a feeling.

If $10 DU's are easier on PS, I probably need to deposit more money, as $65 isn't enough to play that level. (It's probably not enough to play $5's either, but I think I can overcome that. I don't think I've even ever lost 10 in a row and I've played ~500 games).
 
5xThenFold

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i dont think the 10s are easier than the 5s, anything past the 5s are very reg infested, doesnt mean they are beatable, but on stars the 10 are def not easier than 5s, and then all the stuff with collusion sucks big time, i just got money refunded a few weeks ago from DoNs cause people in the game i was in were colluding.
 
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Corey

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Well, that's disappointing. Do you have any data to back up your assertion?

Yeah, that's the other factor - collusion. I think it's probably more likely on PS than Cake or Merge, due to the higher amount of people playing.

Regulars are pretty easy to find, if they have don't have their "disable searches for me" setting turned on. That's the first thing I do when a new game starts on PS.
 
5xThenFold

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if you search the SS leaderboards you will see that winrates are lower on stars every limit you go up in DoNs,. as far as your assumption about regs not having there search turned on/off, that is by far not an indicator that someone is a reg or not, thats just a matter of personal preference.
 
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Corey

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if you search the SS leaderboards you will see that winrates are lower on stars every limit you go up in DoNs,. as far as your assumption about regs not having there search turned on/off, that is by far not an indicator that someone is a reg or not, thats just a matter of personal preference.

I didn't know Shark Scope had leaderboards. I'll have to check that out. Until now, the only way I used it was to search for a given username on a given network, selecting either SNGs or MTTs.

Yeah, and if I see that someone has their search turned off, I don't assume they are a multi tabler regular necessarily. If I see them at 3 or 4 of my tables, I do. The generalization I make about a multi tabler is that they play tight, which is not a bad assumption to make.
 
dmorris68

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Personally I find the DoN's about the same difficulty at $10 as at $5. My winrate is probably the same although I'd have to run a HEM filter to be sure.

$20 is where you really find more regs and tougher play. When I first started playing DoNs I ran hot at 5's and 10's, I had a ~85% winrate over my first 30 or so (small sample I know). I moved up to 20's and saw about a 20% winrate over my first 10-15 or so games -- it could have just been variance catching up, but I definitely got a feel that the opponents were tougher. I moved back to down to the 10's and have been maintaining maybe a 60% or so winrate (haven't looked lately). So honestly I don't think 10's are much tougher. These aren't my primary games, in fact Stars isn't my primary site. But when I'm railing a CC league game or playing a CC freeroll or something, or waiting on a Stars MTT to start, I'll spin up a few of the $10 DoNs to play.

As far as collusion in the DoNs, I think it's been somewhat blown out of proportion after the Chinese ring was busted. Yes, DoNs are structured such that it makes collusion easier to pull off, but I don't think the problem is as big as people make it out to be. Not to mention that even if you have a few colluders, they're usually easy to spot if you're observant, and there's no guarantee they'll be successful either. However I do try to check the player list to be sure I'm not sitting with 3+ people showing the same city, or maybe the same small country (not a sure sign but a general one). So far I've probably played a few hundred of these and I haven't seen any signs of collusion, nor have I been notified of any.
 
trinitus

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I just think u should first star with 5 on PS and if u feel u beat 5$ and ur backroll can afford it go up to 10 or 20. oh... and i would advice u to stay away from DoNs Turbo they are like bingo i feel. Anyway i feel for the things u say that u should read a bit more bankroll management.
 
dmorris68

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^^^ I should have pointed out BR management in my earlier post too.

$100 is not rolled for anything above $5 DoNs. Even at $5 games it's only 20 BI's which is still below BR guidelines. And losing $35 already, you're *really* no longer rolled for the 5's.

That said, if you're a recreational player who doesn't intend to do anything other than have some fun, and aren't trying to actually build a bankroll and play poker seriously, then have at it. :)
 
5xThenFold

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As far as collusion in the DoNs, I think it's been somewhat blown out of proportion after the Chinese ring was busted. Yes, DoNs are structured such that it makes collusion easier to pull off, but I don't think the problem is as big as people make it out to be. Not to mention that even if you have a few colluders, they're usually easy to spot if you're observant, and there's no guarantee they'll be successful either. However I do try to check the player list to be sure I'm not sitting with 3+ people showing the same city, or maybe the same small country (not a sure sign but a general one). So far I've probably played a few hundred of these and I haven't seen any signs of collusion, nor have I been notified of any.

Received on Sept 9th, this is the second one i have received in the last 30 days, from playing DoNs on PS.

Hello,

PokerStars has become aware of players who were working together in our Sit & Go tournaments to the detriment of other players. You were involved in at least one tournament with these players and as a result you may have been adversely affected.

The players' accounts were closed and their funds frozen pending a thorough investigation, which is now complete.

In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the colluders' winnings or balances and to distribute them to the players affected by their actions in as fair a way as possible. To confirm your credit, log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown "ADMIN CREDIT", followed by the amount of the credit.

I regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or players in question. Suffice to say that they have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again.

The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide cheating or collusion in our games. We work hard to police our games and prevent such instances. In the rare cases where collusion has actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.

Thank you for your continued play here on PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help.

Kind Regards,

Stephen T.
PokerStars Game Security

I dont know what site you play on, but on stars its a very big threat that goes on constantly. Im just glad that they are aware and are refunding players money and trying their best to catch these players.
 
dmorris68

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Received on Sept 9th, this is the second one i have received in the last 30 days, from playing DoNs on PS.
I'm aware of these notices, I never said they didn't happen. And they happen in a lot more than just DoNs.

I said I believed the scale of it to be blown out of proportion. I acknowledged the increased opportunity for collusion given the nature of DoNs. However it's never (to my knowledge, and apparently neither Stars) happened to me yet, and I've played quite a few of them. I also am observant and like to think I'd pick up on it if it happened to any regular degree. I do believe that after the Chinese ring was caught, Stars is taking steps to prevent it and to respond when it is reported, and bringing it to light also made players more wary and on the lookout. All of which I believe keeps it in a reasonable state of check.

If people are so concerned, then they simply should avoid them. Same with the garden-variety rigtards who believe all online poker is rigged -- wtf do they still play then???

If you're a winning player at DoNs, then I really don't understand the outrage, nor the perceived damage. OTOH if you're a losing player, well, losing players often find excuses for their loses, which explains the never-ending whack-job statements we get here from the rigtards. When a real cheating event does occur, like the Chinese collusion ring or the superuser scandals, it just pours more fuel on their fire and almost without exception, the loudest doomsayers are simply the biggest losers who now have another convenient excuse. This tends to paint a more dire picture than reality actually represents. There are still people to this day who insist that superusers are rampant across all sites.

None of the above paragraph was directed at you personally 5xThenFold, it's just a general observation. Only you know whether or not it applies to you. ;) I also respect that some seriously good players turn their nose up at DoNs for the same reason (suspicion of collusion) so I'm in no way implying that everyone concerned about it is a rigtard loser.

I guess at the end of the day, if you have a winning record at DoNs, then what is the issue? Sure, maybe despite your success you actually lost some value to colluders, but I still find it hard to be indignant about it and justify your paranoia if you're actually winning at a decent rate. OTOH, for losers, or those who have never played them, then it's hard to take their concerns too seriously when there's a ton of people who aren't colluding and are still successful. I guess I repeated myself there, but whatever.

I dont know what site you play on, but on stars its a very big threat that goes on constantly. Im just glad that they are aware and are refunding players money and trying their best to catch these players.
I referenced Stars in my post, as well as mentioning the Chinese ring being busted, which was also a Stars thing, so I figured it was clear I meant Stars. I've never played a DoN anywhere else. I *wish* FT had them, although I have to say I'm probably a bit more confident in Stars' ability to police them against colluders than I am FT.

To say it's a "very big threat that goes on constantly" is exactly the sort of hyperbole that I referred to above. I tend to strongly doubt that it's quite as bad as you claim, but that doesn't mean I don't think it occurs to some degree. Probably more so than in other games, just given their nature, but the truth is, it's a regular occurrence across ALL game types.
 
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dan abnormal

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Hmmm I dont think you can just blow it off to rigtards, while I dont subscribe to online poker being rigged, if sites are having to pay people back money for this type thing on a regualr basis then there is something more to it.

How many people are we talking about are at the same table in a DON that are all working together

I keep saying a simple way to end this is that if the same players hit the same table more than 3x in a day, then regardless what DON OR SNG or RING GAME they enter, divide them up to different tables automatically. If they try to move to enter their collusion group, deny their request (post a message that they have played with these players (and list them) at the same table too many time), if they try to do it more than 5x Close their accounts, these type things shouldnt be a wait and see deal more like deal with quick and get rid of it or the rigtard (as you call them) will be scared off and really just fuel a fire thats touchy subject anyways
 
dmorris68

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Hmmm I dont think you can just blow it off to rigtards, while I dont subscribe to online poker being rigged, if sites are having to pay people back money for this type thing on a regualr basis then there is something more to it.
But I'm not sure you realize that this isn't unique to DoNs, nor is it new. Yes, again, I acknowledged that DoNs are more susceptible to organized collusion. But poker sites (well, the reputable ones) have been proactively paying back victims of cheats for a long time. They have security teams whose sole job is to investigate cheating and fraud, and to reimburse players who fall victim to it. I would speculate they probably pay reimbursements on a daily basis, or nearly so, whether for DoNs or otherwise. I've known a lot of people to get those same notices and reimbursements for non-DoN games.

I can reasonably assure you of one thing: if cheating was so rampant in DoNs to the point that Stars were spending an inordinate amount of time investigating and refunding losses due to collusion, then I don't think they wouldn't offer DoNs for very long. Not only due to the increased time and labor costs involved with policing them, but also to protect their image (PS and FT take their image regarding cheating and maintaining a safe playing environment pretty seriously). But in fact, DoNs are huge and not only does Stars spread an awful lot of them, and at high stakes, but other sites are rolling them out left and right. I know bodog and Merge now offer them. I think FT is the only major site that doesn't yet, or maybe they do now and I just don't see them with my current filter. I also see a lot SN and SNE players in the DoNs on Stars -- these are essentially professional level players to invest that much time to acquire that status. They don't seem so concerned as to not play them.

Collusion and other cheating happens online just as it does in live games. In some ways it's easier to cheat online, in other ways live. The rigtards I speak of think online poker is inherently rigged or overly vulnerable to rampant cheating, and seize every opportunity (usually driven by their own losses) to try and justify their wacky rigtard conspiracies.

How many people are we talking about are at the same table in a DON that are all working together
I dunno how many players a collusion operation would need at a table for it to be considered profitable, but I expect more than a couple. DoN's pay top 5 so I would think if they could get 4-5 in the same game, their profit potential would be huge. But doing so for any period of time would be highly suspicious and be easily traceable. Collusion has very specific signs and sharp players are always on the lookout for them. Remember, they did bust the Chinese ring awhile back, because they and/or players started realizing what was going on.

I keep saying a simple way to end this is that if the same players hit the same table more than 3x in a day, then regardless what DON OR SNG or RING GAME they enter, divide them up to different tables automatically. If they try to move to enter their collusion group, deny their request (post a message that they have played with these players (and list them) at the same table too many time), if they try to do it more than 5x Close their accounts, these type things shouldnt be a wait and see deal more like deal with quick and get rid of it or the rigtard (as you call them) will be scared off and really just fuel a fire thats touchy subject anyways
This will get dicey among the regs, especially the multi-tablers, who are not colluding but nonetheless run into each other constantly throughout a session. I think it would be a nightmare to manage without alienating a large portion of their reg base.
 
FEARFACTOR

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rs03rs03
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653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only xrs03rs03
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653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only x

I play a lot of the $1.15 D or N sit 'n gos at Stars. There is one player (rs03rs03) that is in nearly every one I play. I'm pretty sure it's a bot. I checked sharkscope, and it says he has played 653,983 games. I'm not familiar with SS, but his graph looks like he was up to $7500 profit, but is now down $696. Can this be right?
 
5xThenFold

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rs03rs03
goldstar.gif
653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only xrs03rs03
goldstar.gif
653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only x

I play a lot of the $1.15 D or N sit 'n gos at Stars. There is one player (rs03rs03) that is in nearly every one I play. I'm pretty sure it's a bot. I checked Sharkscope, and it says he has played 653,983 games. I'm not familiar with SS, but his graph looks like he was up to $7500 profit, but is now down $696. Can this be right?

he is not a bot, confirmed by stars, they sent a rep to his house to watch him play, he 90 tables and made supernova at $1 DoNs, dudes plays for like 16 hours a day everyday, huge thread about it on 2p2.

If you're a winning player at DoNs, then I really don't understand the outrage, nor the perceived damage.

no offense but this is a pretty ridiculous statement. it doesn't matter if you are a winning or losing player at whatever game you play, have several players working together or one player multi accounting in the same tournament takes equity away from the individual players that are not colluding and gives them an equity edge over the field as a whole.
 
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C

Corey

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he is not a bot, confirmed by stars, they sent a rep to his house to watch him play, he 90 tables and made supernova at $1 DoNs, dudes plays for like 16 hours a day everyday, huge thread about it on 2p2.

Wow. I'll have to check that out. Pokerstars actually spent money to send someone (fly ?) to this dude's house and confirm he wasn't a bot? What if he could play 90 at a time as a human and a bot? I don't see how that proves he's not a bot.
 
C

Corey

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rs03rs03
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653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only xrs03rs03
goldstar.gif
653,983$0 $1 0%-$696 -60PokerStarsSNG Only x

I play a lot of the $1.15 D or N sit 'n gos at Stars. There is one player (rs03rs03) that is in nearly every one I play. I'm pretty sure it's a bot. I checked Sharkscope, and it says he has played 653,983 games. I'm not familiar with SS, but his graph looks like he was up to $7500 profit, but is now down $696. Can this be right?

As far as having seen his big profit of $7500 and now seeing -$696:

If you join Shark Scope, you have the opportunity to "reset" your stats. So there is no contradiction. He was up $7500 now he's only up ~$6800

Also, if he's a SuperNova surely he can afford a SS membership in order to do that.
 
FEARFACTOR

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As far as having seen his big profit of $7500 and now seeing -$696:

If you join Shark Scope, you have the opportunity to "reset" your stats. So there is no contradiction. He was up $7500 now he's only up ~$6800

Also, if he's a SuperNova surely he can afford a SS membership in order to do that.
I still don't understand. Wouldn't the graph for total profit show his true winnings? It shows a meteoric rise to almost +$7500 up until about 270,000 games, and then just as drastic of a fall to -$1400 (was - $696 when I last looked) as he is approaching 700,000 games.
 
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Corey

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Just thought I'd post some results from my play on Merge.

Merge $5 level: 529 won 324 lost - 62% win rate
Merge $10 level: 569 won 385 lost - 59.6% win rate

To answer my own question, I think that $5's are only slightly easier to win than $10's. These numbers seem to show not much of a difference, but keep in mind I've been learning how to get better through these hundreds of games. And lately, it does seem like $5's are easier to beat.
 
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