Double-or-Nothing for 6 players.. 4th place

This happens to me all too often. I become a chip leader and forget what type of game I'm playing in.

When I could just be sitting pretty I begin seeing these great cards and in truth... even with AA I should just sit out or call at best.

And wait for the other players to get knocked out.

But I'm a nice guy and try to get the short stacks out myself. And this ends up biting me in the ass a lot of the time. Any one else have this problem? It's like everyone else refuses to play when it's down to 4 players in a 6 player game.

Or 6 players in a 10 person game.

Basically what your saying is you have the final table blues (as a manor of speaking).
This all depends on how you got there in first place, by playing strategic poker of by luck.

If you got there by strategic plays then keep doing that but if you got there by luck then try to strategize your plays more. A players mistake is thinking he's gotten that far because he was good often no paying attention to how the others got there as well.

Players who got there by luck will usually continue to try and steal pots by continuously raising or going all in. Players who there by skill will wait it out (unless they are dealt good high cards) and let the others knock lower than him take them out.

I have a saying when playing poker and especially when at the final table.

I let the good players take out the crappy ones (watch how they play) and then I take out the good players. Works well when your the chip leader.

If your not making first or second place to often then try having more patience and waiting it out, stay away from all-ins no matter what you got etc. I know I folded many a AA and KK on the final table in all-in situations, The best is when your last to fold and you can show them what your folding as it's guaranteed to make them think twice about arguing with you when you bet or call.

Sit on your stack and let the low stacks battle it out, in double or nothing.
Playing 50/50 on stars is different you have to have big chips to make the better dollars so you should continue accumulating.

I think you did the right thing, you get them premium hands you Gotta play them. You could lose if you don't play them, if you let the other players pass chips around to each other long enough, you will be the short stacks.

Just sit back and win some small pots with good cards and you have enough chips to make it under the first four players, then the blinds mostly are a bit higher than you want them. But that's not dangerous just wait a monster hand and win some blinds and wait till they knock each other out. That's my strategy for double or nothing.

Math5oo1 said:

Basically what your saying is you have the final table blues (as a manor of speaking).
This all depends on how you got there in first place, by playing strategic poker of by luck.

If you got there by strategic plays then keep doing that but if you got there by luck then try to strategize your plays more. A players mistake is thinking he's gotten that far because he was good often no paying attention to how the others got there as well.

Players who got there by luck will usually continue to try and steal pots by continuously raising or going all in. Players who there by skill will wait it out (unless they are dealt good high cards) and let the others knock lower than him take them out.

I have a saying when playing poker and especially when at the final table.

I let the good players take out the crappy ones (watch how they play) and then I take out the good players. Works well when your the chip leader.

If your not making first or second place to often then try having more patience and waiting it out, stay away from all-ins no matter what you got etc. I know I folded many a AA and KK on the final table in all-in situations, The best is when your last to fold and you can show them what your folding as it's guaranteed to make them think twice about arguing with you when you bet or call.

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Are you sure you're actually responding to this thread?

joshuawacaster said:

But I'm a nice guy and try to get the short stacks out myself.

It's like everyone else refuses to play when it's down to 4 players in a 6 player game.

Or 6 players in a 10 person game.

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I would suggest it's something besides 'nice guy'. As a large stack you have zero obligation to take out the shortstacks. I hear this type of thinking from players in MTT's as well & it is just not correct at all.
In a DoN you're only increasing everyone else's tourney equity by calling off to the ss shoves while having a bigstack while gaining very little equity yourself (the risk vs. reward is absolutely ridiculous).

There's a 'reason' why the others aren't getting involved in bubble situations in a DoN. It's not that they're refusing to play .... its much more likely that they know exactly how to play.

Remember there is no bonus for finishing first...Just play tight and wait for everybody else to knock each other out.

Poker Orifice said:

Are you sure you're actually responding to this thread?

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He clearly doesn't understand the question, which doesn't come as a surprise really.

Poker Orifice said:

I would suggest it's something besides 'nice guy'. As a large stack you have zero obligation to take out the shortstacks. I hear this type of thinking from players in MTT's as well & it is just not correct at all.
In a DoN you're only increasing everyone else's tourney equity by calling off to the ss shoves while having a bigstack while gaining very little equity yourself (the risk vs. reward is absolutely ridiculous).

There's a 'reason' why the others aren't getting involved in bubble situations in a DoN. It's not that they're refusing to play .... its much more likely that they know exactly how to play.

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^^^ This.

DONs require a very different approach than other games. They're more like a satty. In bubble situations, especially if you're not the far & away chip leader, big hands are commonly folded. You want to avoid big pots on the bubble, in particular if you're a middle stack. If I'm short and in danger, I'll certainly push a wide range (because fold equity is also very valuable in these situations). If I'm chip leader with a very safe stack (let's say 4K+) then I will usually continue to abuse the other players if they're the type to let me. And most of the time, being careful on the bubble themselves, they will let me. But occasionally you'll either get a clueless DON player, or a thinking reg who knows me and knows what I'm doing, that will play back and start building a big pot on the bubble that can seriously hurt me, so I'll control the pot or give up at that point, avoiding them for the rest of game and trying to maintain my safe stack.

You're not playing a DON to finish 1st. Don't feel like you have to play hands just because they're good ones, I've seen far to many top stacks bust out on the bubble because they forget what kind of game they're playing (and yes, it's happened to me more times than I care to remember). Can't say I'd let AA go preflop (some have) but have certainly folded hands like QQ/KK and AK. Nothing hurts worse than to bust out a few hands after having a guaranteed safe stack and having a 3bb stack outlast you to win.

Just play only with high cards and don't be scared to raise or call small all-ins...

I am playing fifty50 on PS which are different from normal DoNs cause you get reward for amount of chips also... So I definitively continue to play even If I have already big stack to just "watch"

but anyway I still think that folding AA or KK on bubble in DoNs is bad. Cause you have greeat chance to finish it. I would think twice about AK. Depends on stacks. If allin player has like 2500 and me 3100 I would fold. But if hes like 1000 chips? I would call him...

But I definitively prefer stealing blinds before calling allins you know Its much harder for someone to call your raise on bubble, than shove by himself...

joshuawacaster said:

But I'm a nice guy and try to get the short stacks out myself. And this ends up biting me in the ass a lot of the time. Any one else have this problem? It's like everyone else refuses to play when it's down to 4 players in a 6 player game.

Or 6 players in a 10 person game.

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Only if I don't concentrate.

If it's pretty clear we have a very short stack then I expect a team strategy to eliminate them. But this rarely comes off. Yesterday I was chip leader in a DoN with 4 left. The short stack had around 300 chips next low was 1300 or something. He shoves all in, I have AJ and think here we go. Rather than call the 300 someone raises all in 1300. So naturally I think I'm not taking the chance here and fold. Flop has an A and a J, turn is a J. Short stack wins hand with A pair. Then wins next hand and we have a game on our hands again. Silly. The rules are quite simple - don't feed the short stack and where sensible maximise potential to eliminate.

All of your tips will hopefully play through my head when the time is right to make the choice to safeguard my stack and say NO to betting loosely when it's not necessary to win at DoN.

Thanks

I've been playing the 10-man DoN's and have struggled with them quite a bit, one of the mistakes I think I've been making is shoving too soon with too little of a hand when I'm short stacked while not looking at the other short stacks and taking into account where they are in relation to me and the blinds, and even how many short stacks there are.

One thing I've been wondering about: let's say you're thinking of shoving with 3-4BB on the bubble. One situation is where everyone else has 10+BB and can just wait you out if you don't do something. The other situation is when there are one or two other even shorter stacks. In the past I would just get an above-average hand and think, OMG, I'm short, time to shove, and it seems like more often than not I would be the one going out in 6th. The times where I held off and waited, usually because I had some loose big stack on my left or in the blinds, often a couple of the medium stacks would get tangled up with each other and one would either get knocked out or be crippled. So, what do you do if you're really short, either from losing a hand or just being card dead, and you think you don't have much fold equity anymore, do you try to wait it out and see if somebody else will start slinging chips around or just shove any decent hand like J9+ in those situations?

Propane Goat said:

I've been playing the 10-man DoN's and have struggled with them quite a bit, one of the mistakes I think I've been making is shoving too soon with too little of a hand when I'm short stacked while not looking at the other short stacks and taking into account where they are in relation to me and the blinds, and even how many short stacks there are.

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50% of the time this awareness of who is short stacked what the BB is whether you can sit on the clock for a few hands to make them all in next round etc. is critical to making the cut.

Propane Goat said:

So, what do you do if you're really short, either from losing a hand or just being card dead, and you think you don't have much fold equity anymore, do you try to wait it out and see if somebody else will start slinging chips around or just shove any decent hand like J9+ in those situations?

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Depends who is at the table and whether they want to do their bit to get someone out or would rather abdicate responsibility. If I'm the fat stack and sitting pretty I'll happily fold AA knowing there's almost no chance I'm being eliminated anyway. But some will shove on 92 unsuited just on the chance of eliminating you.