Don't help the short stack....PLEASE!

Be it SNG or MTT, I see way too many players making this mistake again and again. They help the short stack build back up. These are undoubtedly inexperienced players, and you may be one of them, so listen up! Before you enter a pot, please have a look at al the stacks on the table (you should do this anyway, for SOOOOOO many reasons) but even if you are new and dont have a firm grasp on how to read your table this is easy to remember. If any player(s) have less than 6-7 BB or adjusted BB (M) you should know that they will be re raising any standard bet to all in if they are in the hand, and only if they are really dumb (or really strong) will they be calling here, especially when we are in mid blinds and higher. So if you are, say, in LP and a SS is to follow, DO NOT enter this hand unless you are OK to call the shove from the SS. I see it so often. A medium stack in CO or button or even SB makes a standard raise and then folds to the SS shove. (Seldom is it chip dumping, more often stupidity). Some players think they will make a standard raise to steal, and fold to the re steal. This can be OK as long as you DO NOT fold when it is the short player pushing. So if you want to steal, only fold if another player comes over the top after the SS pushes. If another player calls, decide ahead of time what you will do here as well. Say you steal with KTo, and the SS goes all in and another player calls. If you push all in here, the caller may go out and if you dont take it down, you have tripled the SS. It is to everyones advantage to pay attention to this. Sometimes on the bubble it may be an advantage to keep a SS alive to bully the mid stacks, but only then, and only sometimes if you know your table and KNOW this will help you bully. So, please, look and think before you enter a pot. This is good advice anyway, but always think about what you want a bet to accomplish, and have a plan B if your bet yields other results than you wanted. Never just raise without knowing what you will do in the event of a re raise. And never raise if you will fold to the re raise of the SS! Kinda goes with out saying, but never limp to a SS either.

fletchdad said:

If any player(s) have less than 6-7 BB or 3-4 adjusted BB
It is to everyones advantage to pay attention to this (except the SS).

Click to expand...

FMP lol

... unless I'm the short stack, in which case it's OK.

Praise Jesus!

OH THANK YOU. It drives me insane to be sitting in a SnG (to a lesser extent MTT) and watch this happen...

I always think.. "WTF did you expect??? Of course that stack is gonna shove and with ATC, if you have a good enough had to call preflop against the small stack, you have a good enough hand to call the shove"

I can understand folding post flop, you may have completely missed and know you'll just be adding to their stack, but pre??

But I sit here and think... the players that don't know this obv don't go to this site...because then they would know this...so this is more like preaching to the choir.

Ho-Hum...

Yeah, it's a little irritating, but so is the

We don't want players to play bad? Why? I kinda like it when they play poorly.

Poker Orifice said:

We don't want players to play bad? Why? I kinda like it when they play poorly.

Click to expand...

Playing poorly is one thing, but keeping a SS in the game for no other reason than not paying attention and thinking ahead to possible consequences of your actions is another. Yeah, I want others to play poorly, but I don't want others letting a SS sstay in the tourney over stuipidity.

The main thing I think mst people should take from Fletchdad's post is to pay attention and think ahead. Not just in that particular situation, but in every action you make. But I'm getting OT so... Good post Fletchdad.

Very good post...I'm still learning poker...playing since July 2009...don't make any mistakes though...I have a few wins & lots of cashes under my belt! But, this is an important post to take to heart. I am finally learning the importance of position & knowing what to do if another player is SS(or I am)!

Poker Orifice said:

We don't want players to play bad? Why? I kinda like it when they play poorly.

Click to expand...

Yes they should play poorly, but not help other players to play poorly in conglomeration. in a team effort, if ya know what I mean:santaclau

cause, especially on the bubble, or close to it we dont want certain on their way out stacks to be triple-up stack-uppers (is that a word??)

And, as I said, I am not talking about keeping the SS alive to punish med stack on the bubble, that is another topic altogether......

If the ss is in the sb, and im in the bb im willing to fold to an all-in (even if its only a min bet) if i have no hand, this makes sure that they do not win extra off me to make their double up next hand, even bigger.

zebadie said:

If the ss is in the sb, and im in the bb im willing to fold to an all-in (even if its only a min bet) if i have no hand, this makes sure that they do not win extra off me to make their double up next hand, even bigger.

Click to expand...

Yes. I am speaking of any action taken BEFORE the SS acts. It goes w/o saying that should pay as much attention to your actions if your position is after SS (or anyone else) as well.

Poker Orifice said:

We don't want players to play bad? Why? I kinda like it when they play poorly.

Click to expand...

While I was pulling my daughter to school on her sled - winter has set in solidly already - I was thinking about this post. (No, I cant explain it either....lol) Of course I want bad players to play poorly, but lets say the SS is a good player who just got sucked out on or has had a bad run of cards or whatever. The poor player who limps or raises then folds to the (correct) push by the SS is enabling a good player to have more FE and a bigger stack when it was totally avoidable. The only positive aspect is that the bad player has outed himself as a bad player. But that would probably be obvious without enabling a SS to continue to be a possible able opponent.

Yeah I have to laugh whenever one of the tight, solid multi tablers becomes ss only to get doubled up by some idiot that thinks just because his J8 is suited he should play it hard.

Maid Marian said:

Very good post...I'm still learning poker...playing since July 2009...don't make any mistakes though...

Click to expand...

O RLY?

fletchdad said:

Yes. I am speaking of any action taken BEFORE the SS acts. It goes w/o saying that should pay as much attention to your actions if your position is after SS (or anyone else) as well.

Click to expand...

I know i was just posting a comment related to the thread.

Very Good Point

fletchdad said:

While I was pulling my daughter to school on her sled - winter has set in solidly already - I was thinking about this post. (No, I cant explain it either....lol) Of course I want bad players to play poorly, but lets say the SS is a good player who just got sucked out on or has had a bad run of cards or whatever. The poor player who limps or raises then folds to the (correct) push by the SS is enabling a good player to have more FE and a bigger stack when it was totally avoidable. The only positive aspect is that the bad player has outed himself as a bad player. But that would probably be obvious without enabling a SS to continue to be a possible able opponent.

Click to expand...

This is important,and even more so late/deep in a MTT. I've watched a very good player take a bad loss and went to the SS. Because afew players limped, he would shove with ATC (yes he was that low) and they would fold. He managed to build a stack and eventually place third.

It would have been well advised, for the sake of the players that were eliminated by this player, for him to have been taken down while he was weak.

Nothing makes me smile more than when I push in my SS and I get 2-3 callers and someone bets the flop making the others fold. Just increases my chances of tripling or quadrupling significantly. Vice versa it truly pisses me off to see a bet from a dummy that doesn't understand this concept.

I always LOL at the one with the holier than thou comments in everyone's posts. Always stating the obvious. Reminds me of Gargamel from the Smurfs. I even imagine Gargamel laughing when he thought he was about to catch them. LMAO!

Well heck it changed my pic.

Good post. I can't say I see this that often -- would love it to happen when I am SS. But it never seems to.

What i do see often when I am SS and shoving with not much is another player raising others out of the pot. Of course, they usually have a big PP, so that's understandable...

doops said:

What i do see often when I am SS and shoving with not much is another player raising others out of the pot. Of course, they usually have a big PP, so that's understandable...

Click to expand...

Yeah that's interesting. If this is near the bubble of a satellite or a DoN, clearly that's a bad play to raise callers out of the pot. Otherwise if you've got a great hand, and 3 people have called the SS's shove, then whee! Dead money! Even if the short stack is more likely to survive, you have more equity by raising the flatters out. Obviously you do want a good hand to do this.

philthy said:

O RLY?

Click to expand...

+1, Hmmmm.

For me it goes without saying: don't enter a pot that the SS is in unless you're willing to call his AI! You do otherwise, and you're inviting a comeback.