Does This Hand Make Sense?

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ssbn743

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I’m in a live $210 buy in event at my local casino. My stack is about $80K and blinds are $1500 and $3000 with a $300 chip ante.

Seat 1 limps from EP for $3000 with a $160K stack. Seat 4 calls $3000 with an $11K stack; everyone folds to me on the button, Seat 8. I’m dealt :ah4: :2h4:

I’m leery of raising here, even though I would often, but the $11K stack messes everything up. So I flat the $3000 from the button.

Pot - $13800

Flop - :ks4: :qh4: :5h4:

Seat 1 leads out for $8.5K and seat 4 moves all-in for what turned out to be exactly $8900.

Seat 1 is an aggressive NIT (I don’t know how else to describe him) if there is such a thing. I know he got a piece of that flop, but I also think he will fold it. The pot is now $31200 and I have to call $8900 to continue; getting 3.5:1 on the nut flush draw and an Ace; nearly 2:1 to improve to a pair of aces at minimum. So I Raise to $19K.

Seat 1 quickly folds after showing his hand to the dealer; he said later he had a King.

Seat 4 shows :5c4: :6c4:

I received no help on the next two streets and more than tripled the short stack. Then I got an ass-chewing from Seat 1 about how he could’ve have taken a player out if I weren’t such a jackass.

So I know I was getting the right price and really like how I played the entire hand. I could have raised pre-flop and I also could’ve folded the flop. The only real problem I have here is that this was an unraised pot; maybe I should have raised or folded from the button. I don’t know, I think this was one of the better hands I have ever played, but Seat 1 disagrees, adamantly, so I just thought I’d post it and see what everyone thinks.
 
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WiZZiM

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fold preflop. your giving away 3k here so often when the shortstacked player gets it in postflop.

with your stack size at only 20BB adjusted after antes, you really are not looking for too much action postflop, your mainly playing the preflop game. so lots of 3bet/shove flop type spots.

also, just one thing to think about your postflop play, lets say after you raise to 19k, seat 1 jams on you, now what?
 
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ssbn743

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fold preflop. your giving away 3k here so often when the short stacked player gets it in post flop.

I don’t know that I’m ever going to say fold there – though in hind sight that would have been best here.

I’ve got a 17M stack and position on my side with a suited ace. Additionally, I have an UTG +1 limper and a short stack. I think I should have raised. If I had, UTG goes away and Seat 4 shoves forcing me to call. We know that I still would have lost now, or course, but I think a pre flop raise is better than a fold here; and I still get it in good.

Plus, I don’t have much of a problem with flat calling there either – I’m not giving away 3K, I’m getting 3.5:1 on the pre-flop call (not nearly enough to chase I flush pre-flop I realize, but pretty damn good nonetheless) – getting in cheaply and hitting the flop hard is exactly the spot I’m looking for with that hand. Seat 4 is inviting me to hit and take his stack; cheaply, I don’t even have to raise.

Also, the thought of a Seat 1 jam did cross my mind and I made the decision to go with it right there – the 3-bet commits my stack. Say he does shove, I’d be getting worse odds of course but they would still be about 2.1:1 or 2.2:1 and that’s almost exactly what my hand is worth there.
 
runnerx289

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re-raise about 10k Preflop.. that will get the "aggressive nit" out of the way most of the time. And you have to assume that if the guy in seat 4 is willing to limp for about 30ish% of his stack that he will call you if you put him all-in Pre. And considering that he is like 4 bbs deep his range will be wide here, and your A2s will be good most of the time. You can rule out a stronger ace from his range because I think he would have shipped Preflop with any ace or pair in that spot so you will have a good amount of equity if you can manage to get seat 4 heads up all-in Preflop.

PS. Try to avoid posting hand results in the thread, it can skew peoples answer's
 
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you think a guy with 160k in chips will fold to a 10-15k raise very often? i really dont know what agressive nit is supposed to mean. does he call a lot preflop and fold a lot postflop, or does he enter the pot preflop less often, then go nuts postflop? whats his deal? if you think he will fold often enough then raising to isolate the small stack with extra money in the pot is fine, but i doubt you will get folds from a monster stacker who limps very often.

positional advantage is only an advantage in spots where we have room to move postflop. so saying we have the button doesnt give us free reign to do whatever we like just because we have postion. As our stack dwindles, so does our "positional advantage".

op- what you have essentially done postflop is put yourself at risk all in for 20 bb on nothing but a flush draw, our ace is really only a dirty out. wouldn't you much rather take a smaller fraction of the pot with something like a 3bet, without all in confrontation? i know we want to flip lots in tournaments, and we want to get our stack up, but it just seems to me that you are using odds to give credit to a play where you risk a lot on basically guess work, and it all stems from the decision pre-flop.

our two options preflop are; raise if we think utg folds enough-
just fold and pick away in other pots- keep in mind our A2s really doesn't play that well here.

runner-saying things like you can rule out a stronger ace from his range is ridiculous, you have no idea how this guy plays, if he is capable of calling pre with 56 or whatever, he's just as capable of trying to slow play any ace, perhaps he has no idea how to play but to jst call? who knows? so we can't rule it out just to make it seem like were making a good decision.

op- reads on shortstacker help to define ranges, if you think he has absolutely no idea and is a complete novice you should include that in your op, it makes things a lot easier to work out. ranges is a lot of guesswork, but if you can put yourself in the shoes of another it makes things easier. If this guy has no idea, he might just call preflop with any hand here, not knowing he needs to shove preflop like you or i know.


lastly, most live tournaments even with this moderate buyin are played by a lot of unskilled people. This probably equates to the level of a $5 online tournament realistically in terms of skill level. However that is just speculation, op can fill us in on how bad the tournament skill level is.
 
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WiZZiM

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oh and research "implied odds" and "reverse implied odds". Saying you are getting 3.5/1 preflop doesn't tell the whole story. especially with a hand that can be dominated.
 
RiverMeTimbers

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You bet at a dead pot.. This will upset a lot of players when it comes to tournaments. Why not check the flop and see a turn card for free? if you hit the nuts then betting is acceptable.. You will tick a lot of people off betting a dry pot only to lose to the all-in.

not saying it's a bad move just not typical in this spot.
 
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oh and research "implied odds" and "reverse implied odds". Saying you are getting 3.5/1 preflop doesn't tell the whole story. especially with a hand that can be dominated.
Both Big stack and short stack could be limping with Ax hands giving you reverse implied odds if A flops ( which is alot more often than floping a flush).
I uderstand that calling in a situation such as this is tempting with 3to1 pot odds because of the thought that you might flop the nuts. But floping the nuts will be extreemelly rare. More often you are going to flop an ace or a flush draw.

Furthermore If we raise we might get rid of the Big stack ( not likelly though unless your raise is big which comits you to the hand) do you really want to commit with A rag? But even if we isolate the short stack , 1 we are not getting impied odds because of his stack size , 2 how confident are we that we have the best hand.
If I play this hand and flop a flush draw Im all in , otherwise whats the point in playing it in the first place.
IMO fold > raise > call
 
LuckyBundy13

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Once you made the decision to "call" on the flop, you should have just checked it down. You showed no aggression pre or on the flop whatsoever. Your line looks like nothing but a draw. I'm just saying you can do better.
 
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ssbn743

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IMO fold > raise > call

How do you fold/Raise/Call?

you think a guy with 160k in chips will fold to a 10-15k raise very often? i really dont know what agressive nit is supposed to mean. does he call a lot preflop and fold a lot postflop, or does he enter the pot preflop less often, then go nuts postflop? whats his deal? if you think he will fold often enough then raising to isolate the small stack with extra money in the pot is fine, but i doubt you will get folds from a monster stacker who limps very often.

positional advantage is only an advantage in spots where we have room to move postflop. so saying we have the button doesnt give us free reign to do whatever we like just because we have postion. As our stack dwindles, so does our "positional advantage".

op- what you have essentially done postflop is put yourself at risk all in for 20 bb on nothing but a flush draw, our ace is really only a dirty out. wouldn't you much rather take a smaller fraction of the pot with something like a 3bet, without all in confrontation? i know we want to flip lots in tournaments, and we want to get our stack up, but it just seems to me that you are using odds to give credit to a play where you risk a lot on basically guess work, and it all stems from the decision pre-flop.

our two options preflop are; raise if we think utg folds enough-

just fold and pick away in other pots- keep in mind our A2s really doesn't play that well here.

runner-saying things like you can rule out a stronger ace from his range is ridiculous, you have no idea how this guy plays, if he is capable of calling pre with 56 or whatever, he's just as capable of trying to slow play any ace, perhaps he has no idea how to play but to jst call? who knows? so we can't rule it out just to make it seem like were making a good decision.

op- reads on shortstacker help to define ranges, if you think he has absolutely no idea and is a complete novice you should include that in your op, it makes things a lot easier to work out. ranges is a lot of guesswork, but if you can put yourself in the shoes of another it makes things easier. If this guy has no idea, he might just call preflop with any hand here, not knowing he needs to shove preflop like you or i know.

lastly, most live tournaments even with this moderate buyin are played by a lot of unskilled people. This probably equates to the level of a $5 online tournament realistically in terms of skill level. However that is just speculation, op can fill us in on how bad the tournament skill level is.

So yeah, this is definitely your $5 online variety, though most of these players have stared across the felt for more than a few hours. Nonetheless they habitually limp into pots and make idiotic decisions that have no rational explanation. Case in point, this A-hole with suited connectors limp shoving – why didn’t he just shove pre? Yet I see him at the tables all the time; he can’t be a profitable player, but who knows.

I realize completely that I lose my positional advantage, I wasn’t trying to rationalize this with the button just trying to re-iterate that I was on the button – in other words, I probably wasn’t going to be raised – that’s an important factor here, IMO.

I don’t know how to describe Seat 1. He’s a weak player that limps in constantly. If I raise pre-flop, he most certainly calls; yet if I raise the flop (like I did) he almost certainly folds. He will need two-pair to continue – which is kind of nitty if you ask me giving the situation and his stack. So in trying to describe this guy I said “aggressive NIT”; it doesn’t really fit I know, but that’s what I’m trying to describe.

Seat 4 is just an idiot and I know it. I’ve played him before and he’s a major league idiot. He sits there with his FTP shirt on, his FTP hat and even the $200 POKER sunglasses and just makes me laugh. His range doesn’t matter, he’s got 4BB, and I’ll take my hand against his range and the chance to eliminate a player.

Since I’m nearly certain Seat 1 will fold if I raise, I’m putting almost exactly 4BB in the pot and if I hit my flush I win over 13BB. If Seat 1 happens to call or 4-bet, my equity certainly goes way down as he’ll most likely have two-pair or better. So if I think Seat 1 will play back at me in any way I MUST fold. Otherwise, the 4BB stack is not going to keep me from trying to make the nuts - and thanks to the “aggressive NIT”, I’m even getting the right price.
 
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Were you on the bubble?

If not then I dont see any big problem with the semi-bluff.
 
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Were you on the bubble?
If not then I dont see any big problem with the semi-bluff.

Nope nowhere close to the bubble!

I screwed up positing the results to this hand – I should have waited, I think it skewed some points of view!
 
SicKBeATz

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This is a terrible raise and you are only hurting yourself by doing it.

Situation 1 you raise to shut out the big stack and your flush comes. If I am the CL I will thank you after the hand is over for not extracting an extra 15-20k value bet from me possibly even double up if the right card/cards come. Are you going to say you're welcome, anything I can do to get the least amount of chips from you? So in this situation you are hurting yourself and helping the CL.

Situation 2 You raise the CL out of the pot and triple up the shortstack and put him back in the game by missing the nut flush. You not only hurt yourself and everyone in the tournament by raising but essentially you helped the shortstack. I hope he bought you a drink afterwards or at the very least said thanks.

Situation 3 It was entirely possible when you raised that the CL limped with KQ, if he's limping KJ KT K9 it's not too much of a stretch to say he limped with KQ by raising here you give him the option of rrai and push you out of the pot whereas if you just called he has to call since it's only a 400 chip raise. He cannot reraise here and if a heart comes you get paid off big, but by raising he can reraise you out of the pot and make you fold 20ishbb's with the nut flush draw, again only hurting yourself.

No situation warrants a reraise semi-bluff in this spot, bubble or no bubble.
 
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ssbn743

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This is a terrible raise and you are only hurting yourself by doing it.

Situation 1 you raise to shut out the big stack and your flush comes. If I am the CL I will thank you after the hand is over for not extracting an extra 15-20k value bet from me possibly even double up if the right card/cards come. Are you going to say you're welcome, anything I can do to get the least amount of chips from you? So in this situation you are hurting yourself and helping the CL.

Situation 2 You raise the CL out of the pot and triple up the shortstack and put him back in the game by missing the nut flush. You not only hurt yourself and everyone in the tournament by raising but essentially you helped the shortstack. I hope he bought you a drink afterwards or at the very least said thanks.

Situation 3 It was entirely possible when you raised that the CL limped with KQ, if he's limping KJ KT K9 it's not too much of a stretch to say he limped with KQ by raising here you give him the option of rrai and push you out of the pot whereas if you just called he has to call since it's only a 400 chip raise. He cannot reraise here and if a heart comes you get paid off big, but by raising he can reraise you out of the pot and make you fold 20ishbb's with the nut flush draw, again only hurting yourself.

No situation warrants a reraise semi-bluff in this spot, bubble or no bubble.

This makes absolutely no sense at all! You are speaking in hindsight after knowing the results of the hand – if I had known I was going to lose and triple the short stack I obviously would not have done it – but I didn’t know that – you did when you chose to tell me how dumb I am; and you’re argument makes no sense at all.

Situation Number 1 – And what happens when I miss and have 50% of my stack in the middle? And do you honestly believe that the NIT I described to you pays me anything if a heart comes?

Situation number 2 – It’s not like I wanted him to win, I’m playing poker and I have nearly a 50% (12 outs) chance of beating a pair of fives with only having to invest 30% of the pot.

Situation Number 3 - It is entirely possible that he limped KQ, you’re absolutely right, and that’s a chance I elected to take - and was right I might add. Only a very small portion of his range is two-pair or set combos (in fact in my estimation exactly two hands, KQ and 55), the larger portion of his range is a foldable single pair or some kind of draw.

No situation warrants a re-raise semi-bluff in this spot; really? There are a great deal of situations out that warren this exact thing and this was one of them. I was getting more than the right price to eliminate a player and win a very nice pot despite only a minimal investment. Since you’re such a genius – what else should I be looking for?
 
SicKBeATz

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Situation Number 1 – And what happens when I miss and have 50% of my stack in the middle? And do you honestly believe that the NIT I described to you pays me anything if a heart comes?
Since when was 12k 50% of your stack? Didn't you start the hand with 80k? The only reason you would have that much in the pot is if you raised that much. And yes I believe that "nit" as you describe him, that limps with weak hands as CL will possibly call a half-pot sized value bet if he has top pair against 3hearts. Why do you think he won't, b/c you showed extreme strength with a player allin and he folded? I would of folded a weak K too if you were showing that much strength into a dry side pot with a player all in.
But here's a question, what did you accomplish by reraising? One player was allin already and you reraised an extra 10k to push out the bigstack. My question is why? Were you hoping for him to shove, call, or fold?
He's not going to reraise or even bet a weak K here as he already might think he's behind, and the other player is already allin.
Since you’re such a genius – what else should I be looking for?
I never said you were dumb or said I was a genius, but I don't agree that reraising to shut out a hand that has potential to pay you off is the right play. The other player is already all in and you're risking more chips than you need to against a bigger stack on a draw. Seat 4 with a weak K is likely to check the next two streets to you and possibly check call 15k if you make your flush which is more than the all in player started with.
 
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ssbn743

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Since when was 12k 50% of your stack? Didn't you start the hand with 80k? The only reason you would have that much in the pot is if you raised that much. And yes I believe that "nit" as you describe him, that limps with weak hands as CL will possibly call a half-pot sized value bet if he has top pair against 3hearts. Why do you think he won't, b/c you showed extreme strength with a player allin and he folded? I would of folded a weak K too if you were showing that much strength into a dry side pot with a player all in.

But here's a question, what did you accomplish by reraising? One player was allin already and you reraised an extra 10k to push out the bigstack. My question is why? Were you hoping for him to shove, call, or fold?

He's not going to reraise or even bet a weak K here as he already might think he's behind, and the other player is already allin.

I never said you were dumb or said I was a genius, but I don't agree that reraising to shut out a hand that has potential to pay you off is the right play. The other player is already all in and you're risking more chips than you need to against a bigger stack on a draw. Seat 4 with a weak K is likely to check the next two streets to you and possibly check call 15k if you make your flush which is more than the all in player started with.

Ok, let’s run the numbers:

I started with $80K-ish, yes that’s true. Seat 1 had $160K and seat 4 had $11.9K.

I limp from the button for $3K after the other two players had limped as well. There is a $300 chip ante and the SB folded – the BB was a mega super, super, NIT woman that I didn’t even put in the OP – she was of no concern and she check/folded the flop after checking her option.

Pot - $16,500

After the flop comes out, the Nitty like player in seat 1 leads out for $8.5K and seat 4 moves all-in for $8.9K.

I know seat 1 has me beat right now, and likely seat 4 as well. If he’s not a NIT he is most certainly a straight forward player and he most certainly has me beat. After the all-in from seat 4, I’m getting about 5:1 on a call ($8.9K for $43.2K). I have 9 heart outs and 3 aces (assuming there’s no two-pair or set combo’s) for a total of 12 outs; or roughly 48% to win. So by the math – I have to play this hand!

Two roads:

Option 1 - I raise because I know I can get the straight forward NIT to fold; and he does, thereby allowing me to chase 5:1 pot odds after only risking 14% of my own stack. If successful my stack will increase by almost 40% to 110K+; and all this without having to play the only player in the hand that has me covered by 2:1 and also has me beat.

Option 2 – I flat the $8900 all-in and Seat 1 calls the $400 to complete the betting round. The pot would then be $43.2K. A blank hits the turn and my aggressive NIT friend almost certainly bets out for $15K to $30K. This still gives me close to 5:1 pot odds; however, my hand is now closer to 5:1 to win as well. Additionally, I will then have anywhere from 34% to 52% of my stack in the middle when I miss as we now know that I will. There is a chance that seat 1 checks the turn – in which case I check behind – and still manage to lose the same amount as I did with Option 1. However, I don’t believe he would have checked the turn – but I have been wrong before.

So by choosing Option #1 I raised the best hand out of the pot and still managed 5:1 on the pot and the chance to eliminate a player with a 2.1:1 hand. I can’t take the chance against seat 1, he has a 2:1 chip lead on me and is ahead – if I miss (like I did) I’m ****ed! Obviously, it would be real nice if I did make my hand. Whether or not he would pay me doesn’t matter as I would rather have the option of having him pay me – but it’s just not going to work in this situation –that’s it!
 
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I agree with most people here that it was a bad raise. The call I can understand,but why bet into a dry pot. number 1 was probably thinking lo limit online nit .
Im not saying that just probably what he was thinking.
I am the type player to check it down and try to take someone out of the tournament instead of running into a situation like yours.
Yeah you had a great drawing hand,but still not a made hand.
This is just my honest opinion for live tournament poker.
Everyone knows what A deffernt game live tournament poker is compared to online.
 
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I agree with most people here that it was a bad raise. The call I can understand,but why bet into a dry pot. number 1 was probably thinking lo limit online nit .

Im not saying that just probably what he was thinking.

I am the type player to check it down and try to take someone out of the tournament instead of running into a situation like yours.

Yeah you had a great drawing hand,but still not a made hand.

This is just my honest opinion for live tournament poker.

Everyone knows what A deffernt game live tournament poker is compared to online.

I don’t understand how anyone can call this a bad raise on the flop! I do see what you’re saying, in that I cost myself value if I hit my hand, but, you’re forgetting what happens if I miss. I simply do not have the chip stack to extract the value as you suggest.

Not being able to extract value must lead you back to the pre-flop decision to play the hand in the first place. If you find fault with this hand, it must be with the pre-flop decision to even play it in the first place. And that’s fine with me; I mean that’s why I posted this hand to begin with. But if any fault exists, it certainly does not with the raise on the flop.

Both in hindsight and thinking it over more thoroughly, I think this is a clear fold pre-flop. I can’t raise, because that just compounds all of the above, and by calling, I get myself into a spot with a great hand where I cannot extract any value. I should have folded pre-flop, but once I called, the flop raise is best.
 
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I would have assumed the shortstack had a stronger starting hand and would have foled pre-flop. When was the last time he bet and how many seats are left at your table?
 
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