Does Anyone Have a Problem With How I Played This Hand?

I’m in a live $200 deep stack tournament at my local casino; starting stacks are $35K and after taking two consecutive bad beats I’m already down to $25K. We are in the 2nd 30 minute level with blinds $100 and $200 no ante.

From UTG I find and raise to $600 (3x with 125BB); I’m called by two middle to late position players.

The button is a regular player that is very good, but plays the game straight up. He has actually just sat down maybe 2 hands prior to this and 3-bets to $2K.

I have played this villain before and he is very good. Additionally, I think he respects me as well, so I am certain that he is well aware that I raised from UTG – bottom line is that I know he has a legitimate hand and I immediately assigned him the premium range.

I call the extra $2K after both of the blinds fold, planning to re-evaluate on the flop, and the other two players call as well; the pot is now $8300.

Flop: and I’m first to act.

I see two lines I could chose here:

1. Check and fold to the nearly certain C-bet from the button.
2. Bet out into 3 players and thereby commit myself to this pot.

I chose Option #2 and bet $7K of my remaining $22K stack; I chose this number carefully as it’s over 30% of my stack and commits me to the pot, something that I expect the button to notice as well.

Everyone folds to the button who 3-bets again to $15K. Not that it matters much at this point, but I can throw 10 10 and A K out of the window for this opponent at this point and refine his range to JJ plus. I then follow through with my plan and move all-in with no fold equity; he calls and shows

Turn:

River:

Now I see this as a pretty standard hand and situation, the player on the button agreed with me as we talked about this hand during the next break. However, another player at the table chose to berate me and tell me what a jackass I am for risking my life on a draw so early in the game. That’s the purpose of this post, I think if I’m not going to play that I might as well not play but am wondering what everyone reading this thinks.

imo fold AKs to a 3b that deep when OOP. not worth it since like you said, he always has to have monster hands in that spot.

i think your flop line is bad, and i think you know why;
if you donk and get raised, you know he has the best hand, and you know you have no fold equity when you reshove, thereby committing your stack on a flip at best.
if you assign him a range of TT+ AK when he 3bs you, then OTF you beat nothing. you take away a TON of AK combos aswell. however youre still in great shape against his JJ and QQ combos, which due to card removal, are much more likely since you have blockers to AA KK and AK.

i think you probably have the most fold equity check/shoving the flop, but like you said, i still dont think you have much. but vs a range of TT+AK youre actually favourite to win so i think you have to ch/shove.

alternatively, since youre ahead, if you want to gamble, id suggest leading out the flop a lot smaller, since you know hell likely raise any overpair (this way his raise will be smaller) and that way you can 3b shove the flop having him commit less chips there thereby probably having a lot more fold equity. by betting tiny, then jamming over a raise you look like you have the absolute nuts and he really has to stop and think about being up against TT

but ye, i think this is still a fold pre. after having listed all the options, i like small donk/3b overshove the best. gamboooooooooool

Looking at it I think it was a dangerous play, however, you were well aware of what you were doing and what you were hoping to achieve. Therefore I don't think anyone can/should berate you for the play...

I would have checked the flop and then called or shoved the c-bet - however, I have very limited experience and from the way you justify it maybe what you did is fine. I'm going to have to let the better players on here decide that though...

JCgrind said:

imo fold AKs to a 3b that deep when OOP. not worth it since like you said, he always has to have monster hands in that spot.

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Folding when this deep with A,K even OOP? You'r joking right JC?:O

We've established the reg is good, so he's never just squeezing for value here more likely a good reg with 2 callers behind to a raise is squeezing reallllly light because he is good and he knows it's going to be a brilliant spot to pick up a ton of dead money. Even when he does squeeze for value;we have A,K lol, we're only a huge dog to AA and again we have A,K ..like it's not like we have A,J for example. Even if we flat call; OOP with A,K is pretty easy to play.

Also; it's a tournament chip accumulation is our objective.


OP:

"I see two lines I could chose here:

1. Check and fold to the nearly certain C-bet from the button.
2. Bet out into 3 players and thereby commit myself to this pot."


Sorry - but I think both your options you choose here are horrible and seriously; where's the option to x/r?

You hit a monster flop for your hand, these options are bad..I mean..you could honestly x/f this flop to a c-bet on pretty much one of the better flops you could hope for? Donking out is awful as well. You have 2 over cards + nut flush draw..there's very little you're behind too, even pairs don't have you crushed not even sure of odds but I'm guessing we're flipping to over pairs? Anyway;

I hate the donk lead bet; really I do. Lets be honest; we're a multi-way pot, this flop will of hit WORSE hands than ours in terms of draws and even weak one pairs are probs behind to our hands; (QJ/7/8/8,9 etc) draws are crushed. Why would we donk out and fold out all the worse hands/worse draws. We're commited to calling as you know, which isnt' a bad spot as stated (overs + spades) above but we're putting ourselves in a position where we now have NO FE for the times he does have TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA he's committed into calling.

I much prefer a c/r all-in. It puts his JJ/QQ/KK that have a bit more equity than you in a tough spot. It also puts all those semi spade bluff hands aswell who are now priced in to call you have absolutely crushed and you put villians in much more horrible spots and you "might" even get a folds to the hands you're slightly behind too and pick up all the dead money..and when called you have enough equity too!


Best line imo is just a nice simple x/r on the flop and get it in.

what this is a terrible spot to squeeze light?? his raising range is literally JJ+ AK and even half the combos of JJ/AK dont squeeze.

play +EV, dont make negative EV plays just because its a tournament. if anything ICM and tournament EV dictates that losing chips here is much worse than doubling up.

you are assigning lol wide ranges here. the problem with c/r is that the button isnt going to cbet AK here ever, so we get to a turn and when it bricks its a disaster for our hand. bet/3bet is a totally legit option.
c/r would be my default tho

Why is he certain to cbet into a 4-way T95 2-toned board? If anything I think he's almost certain to check it back unless he has an extremely strong hand. That said I think his JJ shove is pretty bad, and your play is fine. I'd probably rather ch/c than lead, and I really hate ch/shove because we have no FE.

maybe im missing something, but we have an UTG raise from OP...2 callers behind..villian is a good reg on the button. How is his raising range only JJ+/AK+?

I think this spot especially for a good player is brilliant to put OP in a bad spot with 2 callers left to act so he can raise really wide on the BTN and if gets called by OP, he still has position and can easily narrow down OP's range of hands.

Not sure how donking is warranted really on this board texture either given you think villian holds A,K+/JJ+ as he's always going to have cbet any board, even with JJ+ A,K as we know if he checks behind A,K+, he always has A,K and we can stab any turn and take it away so a good reg will know this so will opt for a smallish cbet regardless of board texture as he's gonna hate having to fold turns with his A,K to a inevitable turn lead from OP.

All that said, even when he holds JJ+ he's going to have a really tough time calling a x/r on this board texture, as we only really rep sets/ 9/T + flush draws. If we donk lead, he's going to shove JJ+ anyway over our donk; meaning we lost all our FE when we do x/r the flop. Besides which are we seriously ever folding the nut A,K in this spot?

hackmeplz said:

Why is he certain to cbet into a 4-way T95 2-toned board? If anything I think he's almost certain to check it back unless he has an extremely strong hand. That said I think his JJ shove is pretty bad, and your play is fine. I'd probably rather ch/c than lead, and I really hate ch/shove because we have no FE.

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What we know, by the information is that he has given this player a strong range preflop. I expect that this range more often than not, will cbet here.

So I have to agree with the c/r line on the flop.

oh wait nevermind, lol - I thought both other players folded and thought we was heads up vs BTN ^^ I really need to read posts correctly.

It's still a good spot for a good reg on the BTN to squeeze here imo with quite a wide range of hands, not just JJ+/AK

I just hate donk leads a board like this when we have decent equity, we potentially fold out worse spade draws + straight draws. Still think a x/r on this board is gonna be best.

I'm still stuck on how you think this is a great squeeze spot

hackmeplz said:

Why is he certain to cbet into a 4-way T95 2-toned board? If anything I think he's almost certain to check it back unless he has an extremely strong hand. That said I think his JJ shove is pretty bad, and your play is fine. I'd probably rather ch/c than lead, and I really hate ch/shove because we have no FE.

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But we have more FE ch/shoving as opposed to donk lead/calling his 3bet shove as we have ZERO FE everytime he does this and he's always nearly going to shove over to our donk leads with JJ+ here.

From UTG+1, I would have led bigger PF. I don't know the table, but it seems a standard 3bet wasn't enough to get rid of the rif raf. Also, you're more likely to get a call, rather than a raise from the button. Leaving you in control, and prolly costing you less to see the flop.

Post flop, it's time to get it in. What's there, like 19 outs, with a RF in the mix?

-

duggs said:

I'm still stuck on how you think this is a great squeeze spot

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Because we have a 3x open and 2 calls behind..a good reg player has the BTN and we have dead money in the middle...how is it not a good spot for a good player to take the initiative on the btn?

We have; a decent sized pot to take down pre as a bare minimum and we put OP in such a horrible spot, as he has 2 others left behind to think of and will be playing OOP for the whole hand meaning OP can rarely continue so there is a high chance we can take this pot down pre flop with a wide range of hands.

I'm not sure how it's not a great spot for a good reg to literally squeeze any hands in this spot it seems perfect to me.

Why to bet only 7k and not directly all-in?
We are pot commited anyway, and with such bet we have smaller FE.

You decided to pot commit yourself anyway so you should have just shoved the flop IMO

You both mean donkshoving an overbet of almost 3 times the pot?

I rather have a lot of foldequity when my hand isn't that strong, why the f would you want as much FE as possible with so much equity?

duggs said:

what this is a terrible spot to squeeze light?? his raising range is literally JJ+ AK and even half the combos of JJ/AK dont squeeze.

play +EV, dont make negative EV plays just because its a tournament. if anything ICM and tournament EV dictates that losing chips here is much worse than doubling up.

you are assigning lol wide ranges here. the problem with c/r is that the button isnt going to cbet AK here ever, so we get to a turn and when it bricks its a disaster for our hand. bet/3bet is a totally legit option.
c/r would be my default tho

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really really agree. nobody is even going to bother making a squeeze light with stacks this big at 100/200 imo

ramdeebam said:

Folding when this deep with A,K even OOP? You'r joking right JC?:O

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...i dont get it... were literally check folding all flops, winning 1 street or falling way too in love with TP. i think this is def a fold pre

C/R or SHOVE seeing as you state..YOU ARE COMMITTED!!

you had a plan for the hand and a plan for your play after the flop , you stuck to the plan, i have no problem at all with your play

This hand is played fine.

if anything ICM and tournament EV dictates that losing chips here is much worse than doubling up.

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This is wrong. Taking flips is almost always going to be good this early.

baudib1 said:

This hand is played fine.



This is wrong. Taking flips is almost always going to be good this early.

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evidence?
your ability to realise your edge isnt currently compromised. doubling your stack here doesnt allow you to realise your edge. taking flips when you have a big edge on the field isnt a good idea.

I believe I'm a bit more conservative than most of the other posters, so this is my 2 cents.
If you know the player on the button, is he capable of 3 betting light on the button? And if he is, how light?
I would check/call up to about half the pot on the flop. The 7k bet into a 8k pot would not pass the smell test to me.(if I were the button player) I know that once your draw hit, you may not get anymore action, but I also think it's better to win a small pot rather than lose a big pot early in a trny.
I do not like to chase draws early in a trny. Deep stacked, I don't mind seeing one card(esp. if I've got 2 overs to the board) but personally, I don't think risking my trny life on a draw so early in a deep stacked trny is a profitable move.

duggs said:

evidence?
your ability to realise your edge isnt currently compromised. doubling your stack here doesnt allow you to realise your edge. taking flips when you have a big edge on the field isnt a good idea.

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The best way to utilize your edge is to have a big stack going into the bubble. Since we're a long ways from the bubble and a long ways from having a big stack, our edge is really non-meaningful/nonexistent at this point.

ICM is a non-factor at this juncture. Read up on Arnold Snyder's Reverse Chip Theory in which he debunks the theories of Sklansky et al. that you are basically endorsing here.

You can be the greatest player in the world but if you have 9 BBs, your skill is virtually meaningless. The times you bust out early on a flip are more than mitigated by the times you build a big stack early and continue to build a dominating stack going into the bubble/ITM periods.

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/reverse_chip_value_theory.htm

The bad models and false logic have lead to the major problem we find in the recommended strategies of the authors who believe in these theories, notably: overly tight and conservative play

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1. The more skill you have, the more your chips are worth.
2. The more chips you have, the more your skill is worth.

Well I’m glad most everyone is ok with how I played it. I didn’t even really consider a C/R here but in this case it does not seem to matter to me anyway. I don’t want him to fold, and that would be the driving force of a C/R all-in, to increase fold equity. Plus I don’t have any fold equity with a C/R either, so the difference is negligible in this case – the way I see it anyway.

Also, let’s just get this squeeze idea out of here right now. I think this player is pretty good at poker, he has had some success recently with a 3rd place finish in the HPT, but he is very tight/straightforward. What makes him so good, in my opinion, is his brain. He often sniffs the right move out even if he can’t explain how – he is a very dangerous player because of the feel he has for the game; but I doubt very seriously he could explain it to you or me. This player is never squeezing here, hell I’d be surprised if he ever squeezes period!

He certainly had a legitimate hand from the button, I think AK+, and that’s what I thought at the time as well. The two players to my left were limp/call idiots, neither one of them had a hand so there is some merit to a 4-bet pre-flop IMO. However, in such a case I’m only getting action from hands I’m behind (if even slightly) so I chose to flat the 3-bet pre flop. Once the flop hits my hand huge, I don’t really think it matters if I C/R or lead out like I chose to do. If I check, the button likely bets $6K-$8K and my $22K C/R is near meaningless; the only advantage to a C/R I can see is if the villain happens to have AK and C-bet the flop it would earn us an extra bet – but that’s it.

However, the other player that decided to cuss at me was adamant that I should have check folded, or folded pre-flop; I think this is terrible thinking in tournament poker. If I go broke here, so be it – but he did make me question myself (which pisses me off actually). I could 4-bet all-in pre-flop which likely would have earned me the pot without a showdown and increased my stack by 30%+, but as it played out I increased my stack by 120%. So I think the risk is worth the reward, if I lose then I lose, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve gone broke with AK!