Does Anyone Else Feel Like a Rock?

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ssbn743

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Now, it’s no secret that I am a tight player; that’s just the style of play that I prefer, and I exploit the image that results fairly often. However, more and more I feel like a total rock. I watch players around me play poorly with bad hands or bluff at meaningless pots with terrible textures; I watch them get busted while I’m still sitting there time and time again; the problem is that I’m still sitting there with $60K when we started 15 levels ago with $40K.

I pick my spots and use the board texture to my advantage; I love to bluff a turned ace (that’s one of my favorites), and win without ever taking too much risk. Rarely do I bluff, and when I do it’s anything but total air, as a consequence, I feel like a rock and probably look like one too. These past few days I haven’t exactly received too many cards either, but not that anything would change with slightly better cards; I’d still fold to an UTG raise when in the CO with QJo.

Friday I played a 6-max event and got busted by losing a 60/40 in 16th of 120th with the bubble at 14th and Saturday I busted in 34th of 124th in a $500 NL Hold ‘em event – but I never had a stack in either tournament and just seemed to delay the inevitable for 9 or 10 hours each day. I got antsy in the 6-max event a few times and raised hands I normally would not, like 45o from the button, I see other players pull that crap all the time and get away with it, but it never works for me. I would think my tight image would offset some of the negative effects of opening light from late positions but it almost never works when I want it to work.

Side Note and a Funny story:

Yesterday in the $500 NL Hold ‘em tournament I had $60K in level 19 with $2.5K/$5K/$500 and was in the small blind. Chip monger with about $300K-$350K in the Hijack raises to $12K and I shove two red eights into him. He calls fairly quickly and says:

“I hope you have A Q”

Then flips over KJo – lol

Guess who won?


I just see some of the craziest play sometimes, one guy flat called an UTG 4-bet for 60% of his stack with 99 to flop quads and beat KK – holy hell!

I don’t know, I’m comfortable with my playing style and it has taken me a long way in poker. Even though it sucks to have 1.5 times the starting stack hours into the event. On the flip side, I am still there and good situations multiply exponentially as the blind levels increase. All it takes is one hand, and that one hand will almost certainly be at least 60/40 for me, but it just feels like I am extending myself too much and setting myself up to be crippled by one relatively common suck out. What am I to do though, start calling in position with the J5o I’m dealt?
 
MediaBLITZ

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Things you can do (and pretty much stay a rock):

1) Be more aggressive. You can stay a rock, but bet more when you get into action. Since you are mostly playing only premium hands, jack that pot up.

2) Loosen up. Play more hands from the button and cut-off. NOT J5o though.

3) Exploit other rocks. Figure out who at the table would actually respect your bluff (there may not be many). Go after them.

4) Take 15-20% of your stack to play LAG in the first couple of levels of the tourney. If it doesn't work go back to rock and wait for a good one to chip back up with.
 
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Men, you are playing on a very loose table, do you really expect that stealing with 45o will be profitable?? you will get called everytime, you should play tight. If you see that they push with crap hands, then why not call with JQo and be 2 to 1 favourite??
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I think you're just getting frustrated with a recent lack of results.

first of all, in an online tourney don't expect your image to mean very much.

I'd guess the $500 was live since you posted a quote from villain..so in a live tourney your image MAY mean something...you have to figure out who will respect your image and lay down because of it, and who is incapable of laying down a hand like KJ to a tight player. It's hilarious that he was HOPING to have 45% equity.....

so, of course you already know that you have to take your shot right there with 88 and an M=5. It was an unlucky flip for you; but it was a great opportunity to build a comfortable stack. You just have to win flips in tourneys, there's no way around it; and when you're not winning your flips it can be extremely discouraging. Maybe next time that guy will call you when you have AK and he is drawing to 3 outs.

last year at the 2013 wsop in 4 days of tourney play I only won ONE of my flips....AQ vs JJ and luckily I spiked a Q. I had about 9 critical flips in my 4 days and I only won ONE of them. Initially, it made me want to quit, but after cooling off and then reviewing all those hands with my friends and my study group, I realized they were all just flips I had to take and I just lost. that's all.

If you think you are playing like a rock, and you want to spice it up, then next time you think a raiser is aware of your image, try 3betting light with a speculative hand when you're in position. Say a good, thinking player raises to 2.5x from mid position. You pick up 89s or 55 on the button, 3bet it to 7x. He'll often lay down. If he 4bets, you can fold. If he flats you will often win on the flop with a Cbet. If he flats and then donks the flop, you can jam with pretty much any kind of a draw and he'll probably lay down....this is all stack size dependent of course. When you have an M=5 none of those moves are available to you.
 
Arjonius

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Your statement that you feel like you play rocky may not be completely consistent with saying you exploit it fairly often.

Even if you're correct in assuming the other players have a rocky image of you, if you tend to find yourself blinding down to push or fold-sized stacks, maybe you're not using your image to your advantage often and/or early enough.
 
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Your statement that you feel like you play rocky may not be completely consistent with saying you exploit it fairly often.
Even if you're correct in assuming the other players have a rocky image of you, if you tend to find yourself blinding down to push or fold-sized stacks, maybe you're not using your image to your advantage often and/or early enough.

In live poker it’s often times hard to exploit a tight image, especially in the early going; that’s probably mostly the same online too. But, that’s a good way to put it, I feel like a rock and find myself with a shove or fold stack way too often. On the up side, I’m a ****ing expert at playing a short stack.

Even when I have 20BB, which would normally give me few more options, I’m often the low stack at the table by at least 2:1 – so I end up shoving or folding a 20BB stack; personally I think that’s mostly a consequence of poor structures, but that’s exactly what happened this past weekend with the WSOP structure (albeit it was 30 minute levels instead of 60).

I guess I just feel like a rock and feel like my game is completely transparent; that may not be the case, but that’s the way it feels. Even if I had tried to open up a little from late positions I didn’t have any hands to work with – so I would have been forced to total bluff – which could work in conjunction with a tight image, and frequently does, but not to the degree necessary to build a healthy stack; most of the time, I win the blinds and maybe a limp here and there.

Maybe I’m not looking at the right players but it doesn’t seem like many of the other quality players have the same issue. Occasionally, I’ll see them in my boat, but for the most part they always have a healthy stack, or they’re bust. I think I need to open up a little but I can’t even figure out how. This past weekend I did everything I could with the cards I was dealt – the only way I can figure is to start taking what I would consider to be big chances with pretty much air and start and 3 and 4 betting J5o.
 
Arjonius

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Even when I have 20BB, which would normally give me few more options, I’m often the low stack at the table by at least 2:1 – so I end up shoving or folding a 20BB stack; personally I think that’s mostly a consequence of poor structures,
It's a consequence of under-valuing stack maintenance / chip accumulation in the mid-game. As you said elsewhere, good players tend to arrive at the later stages with decent stacks or not at all. You tend to arrive there with a small one. The big picture issue isn't just a matter of how to play small stacks. It also involves not having to play them as often.

If you play tight in the mid-game, you'll get to the late game more often, but with smaller stacks. But the way MTTs pay out makes this sub-optimal. So, I suspect a key question you should look at is how /when to be a little more active during the mid-game in order to shift this balance. The goal is arrive at the late game with stacks that better arm you to go deeper, even if you don't get there quite as often.
 
BluffMeAllIn

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I do when in water lol

lolz aside you got a couple of greats giving advice already, I just couldn't resist.
 
duggs

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villain played that KJ hand fine fwiw, you shoved 12bb into him.
 
fletchdad

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I am a rock....

I am an Island........



(I had to..........)
 
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You can still have the best hand without a made hand. You have to win one out of every nine hands in nine handed just not to blind out. That in itself are reasons not to be to tight.
 
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villain played that KJ hand fine fwiw, you shoved 12bb into him.

Duggs, I didn’t mean to imply that I had a problem with his hand, or mine – what were either of us to do?

I just thought it was funny in that particular case that he hoped he was dominated, but the KJ versus 88 was standard in my opinion.

It's a consequence of under-valuing stack maintenance / chip accumulation in the mid-game. As you said elsewhere, good players tend to arrive at the later stages with decent stacks or not at all. You tend to arrive there with a small one. The big picture issue isn't just a matter of how to play small stacks. It also involves not having to play them as often.

If you play tight in the mid-game, you'll get to the late game more often, but with smaller stacks. But the way MTTs pay out makes this sub-optimal. So, I suspect a key question you should look at is how /when to be a little more active during the mid-game in order to shift this balance. The goal is arrive at the late game with stacks that better arm you to go deeper, even if you don't get there quite as often.

I’ve always had to learn things the hard way – and even though I’ve read exactly what you said above many times, in a way, I guess I haven’t really understood until now. That’s not completely true either, my game has varied over the years; there was one year that I absolutely destroyed the competition, and then there is every year since. I seem to fall into these ruts that can be hard to get out of; lately (say the past year or so) I am always there late and usually take some form of a bad beat to lose near the bubble. I’ve noticed that pattern for a while now and just haven’t said anything. The first solution that comes to mind is to open up a little from late positions, just as you said, especially in the mid-game. However, this past weekend, for example, I simply didn’t have anything to work with, I was either dealt AA or J5o there were no in-between hands to open up with and when they did come they came UTG. Which makes it tough to get anything done – in short I had a hard time finding a spot to lose; I couldn’t lose if wanted to and that makes me think I’m playing too tight.

But you’re right; I’ve got to find some more spots in the middle.
 
SofaKingCrazy

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I am a rock....

I am an Island........



(I had to..........)

To quote the great Jefferson Airplane: "No man is an island!!!.... it's a peninsula"

to OP: Lots of advice here. Maybe find a cheap tourney or freeroll and practice playing looser to use the gained knowledge in bigger tourneys. Personally I feel no tourney is won without a few coin flips going your way.
 
duggs

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he was hoping he wasn't dominated, KJ v AQ is a hell of a lot better than KJ v AK/AQ/KQ
 
Jacki Burkhart

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...However, this past weekend, for example, I simply didn’t have anything to work with, I was either dealt AA or J5o there were no in-between hands to open up with and when they did come they came UTG. Which makes it tough to get anything done – in short I had a hard time finding a spot to lose; I couldn’t lose if wanted to and that makes me think I’m playing too tight.

But you’re right; I’ve got to find some more spots in the middle.



When life deals you lemons, you gotta make lemonade!

I know it's hard to do...but you gotta take your chances with a short stack while you still have good fold equity.

I've shoved 85o on the button or cutoff so many times...not happy to do it buy I frequently win the blinds. Sometimes win a race.

I actually pushed J5o UTG in a live tourney a few weekends ago. Mid pos player re shoves with AK we get heads up I catch a 5 and more than double up including blinds and antes.

It HAS to be done. It's hard to have worse than 25%-30% equity when you jam and get called. When you factor in fold equity you REALLY need to be pulling the trigger in the mid stages...

Just my 2 cents! :)
 
Propane Goat

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When life deals you lemons, you gotta make lemonade!

I know it's hard to do...but you gotta take your chances with a short stack while you still have good fold equity.

I've shoved 85o on the button or cutoff so many times...not happy to do it buy I frequently win the blinds. Sometimes win a race.

I actually pushed J5o UTG in a live tourney a few weekends ago. Mid pos player re shoves with AK we get heads up I catch a 5 and more than double up including blinds and antes.

It HAS to be done. It's hard to have worse than 25%-30% equity when you jam and get called. When you factor in fold equity you REALLY need to be pulling the trigger in the mid stages...

Just my 2 cents! :)

This is one of my biggest problems in MTT's, I tend to play way too tight in middle levels with 20BB because I get sick to my stomach when I finally get up the courage to shove a so-so hand in a spot where I know it's the correct play, and somebody snap calls and flips over a premium pair and I'm out.

Like others have said previously, you have to take calculated risks in order to make those deep runs, it's better than being timid and either min-cashing or bubbling time and time again.
 
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he was hoping he wasn't dominated, KJ v AQ is a hell of a lot better than KJ v AK/AQ/KQ

Don’t read too much into this Duggs, I just thought it was a funny story:

1. The fact that he put me on a specific hand and not a range is the first problem
2. Then the fact that he hoped he was beat was the second

The fact of the matter is that AQ is better than KJ; why would you get all the money in and then hope your opponent had a better hand? That was funny! Why even say it? In truth, he was saying that because he had witnessed the worst hand winning for some time at that table, so he wanted the worst had; you know, to guarantee that he would win – bad player, idiotic logic; funny right?

That’s all man, it was just funny – no need to start getting analytical here – it was a standard race as far as the deck was concerned.
 
Arjonius

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However, this past weekend, for example, I simply didn’t have anything to work with, I was either dealt AA or J5o there were no in-between hands to open up with and when they did come they came UTG. Which makes it tough to get anything done – in short I had a hard time finding a spot to lose; I couldn’t lose if wanted to and that makes me think I’m playing too tight.

But you’re right; I’ve got to find some more spots in the middle.
You can always find spots. The key is to think outside your natural comfort zone. For instance, With a 15-20bb stack, it's natural enough to auto-fold J5 when someone has opened UTG. With AJ, shoving may not be automatic for you, but I suspect you consider it a reasonable option.

But, let's assume UTG has a tight image of you, and because of that, will only call if he's very strong. Against TT+ AQ+, your equity is only about 3% better with AJ than J5. Is this enough for J5 to be an auto-fold while AJ is okay to push?

This is a selective example, so don't take it to mean I'm telling you to shove J5. What I am saying is to think outside of what's (semi-) automatic / natural for you.
 
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1 play more aggressively
2 steal the blinds from the button
3 for the first levels of the game create table reputation of a player who rarely bluffing

well, after much personal skill will help you
 
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You can always find spots. The key is to think outside your natural comfort zone. For instance, With a 15-20bb stack, it's natural enough to auto-fold J5 when someone has opened UTG. With AJ, shoving may not be automatic for you, but I suspect you consider it a reasonable option.

But, let's assume UTG has a tight image of you, and because of that, will only call if he's very strong. Against TT+ AQ+, your equity is only about 3% better with AJ than J5. Is this enough for J5 to be an auto-fold while AJ is okay to push?

This is a selective example, so don't take it to mean I'm telling you to shove J5. What I am saying is to think outside of what's (semi-) automatic / natural for you.

That’s a good way to put it – I guess I never really thought of it like that. Honestly, I think AJ is an insta-fold too, but it definitely has much more merit than J5o.

I have always remembered a quote from what I believe was “Super System”; if not then it came directly from Doyle, “You have to get in there and play”. I just have a hard time sometimes, especially against EP raises, my default range is 10 10+, but most players at my level have extremely large ranges even from UTG, 77 is not uncommon; hell I’ve even seen KQ or Q10s fairly often.

Well, I’m off to the CPC main event ($1100) today, so I’ll give it a shot and open up bit against the right opponents and see what happens. I’ve been thinking a lot about this and I think today I’m going to go rock, until the middle game and then open up my LP three-bet and LP call range considerably; I figure in the worst case scenario I have a very familiar 15BB stack and know exactly how to play it.
 
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Well, that was fun…LOL

I made it about 9 hours/levels before busting yesterday. I played mostly like a rock but opened up a little and 3-bet much more than I normally do. We started with $50K and I had about $40K after being as low as $22K at one point with the blinds at $100/$500/$1k.

From UTG I’m dealt :qs4: :qc4: and raise to $2,300 (2.25x with <40BB). A middle position player 3-bet to $5,600. This player had been very aggressive and had been 3-betting near constantly, however, each time he did he showed KK or AA or even AK a couple of times. His stack was just under $100K.

Queens was the best hand I had yet seen in 9 hours of playing and I didn’t really think he had one of the only two hands that beat me. However, I was near certain he had a big ace, maybe some semi-high pocket pair. So I flat called his 3-bet and went to the flop.

Pot: $13,600

Flop: :8s4: :3d4: :2d4:

Being first to act, I judged my opponent the best I could when the flop came out and felt that I had the best hand. So I moved all in for remaining ~$35K.

My opponent initially asked for a count and then as the dealer was starting to count my all-in bet he said “Aww, **** it, I’ll call”. I immediately knew I was in trouble.

He showed :8d4: :7h4:

Pot: $83,600

Turn: :6c4:

River: :8c4:

And there we go – I got beat by a ****ing donk again. I suppose I could have 4-bet all-in pre-flop but that’s not the path I chose against what I figured his range to be. Then, again I wasn’t even close on identifying his range – who knows, but this sucks – I can’t win, I don’t even know why I play.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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^ well that was played awful :/
 
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^ well that was played awful :/

Really, it wasn’t that bad – I’ve got 40BB – I’m all-in on a lot of flops with a premium over pair. That said, I do wish I had 4-bet pre flop but I don’t think it was “awful” as played.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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1st comment comes off as mean but it kinda really is..

you 5xed pre, you didn't 4bet pre vs the lagfish

pot on the flop's 13k, you shove 35k, why

when you got called you somehow thought you were behind (arguable, you did play it so that only better should ever call)

4betting all in pre-flop seems really bad vs this villain as well, might as well make it 14k or something and bet flop shove turns..

:/
 
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1st comment comes off as mean but it kinda really is..

you 5xed pre, you didn't 4bet pre vs the lagfish

pot on the flop's 13k, you shove 35k, why

when you got called you somehow thought you were behind (arguable, you did play it so that only better should ever call)

4betting all in pre-flop seems really bad vs this villain as well, might as well make it 14k or something and bet flop shove turns..
:/

I started the hand with $40K, I get ~$5K in pre flop and there is $13K in the middle. Any reasonable C-bet is equal to or greater than 30% of my stack - that’s why. Not that I am saying it is right, but that’s why. My source with that approach is Jonathon Little.

I didn’t think I was behind when he called; in fact I knew I was ahead because he delayed his call a measurable amount of time. I was just saying the “**** it, I call” scenario usually doesn’t work out for me; or you either I’m guessing. That’s the last thing I want to hear my opponent say – unless maybe he is drunk.

I just said I should have 4-bet, not how much. That said, I would have shoved, again, because any 4-bet is greater than 30% of my stack; I can only comfortable go to about $12K; I could have 4-bet to something like $20K, but my opponent has a 2:1 chip lead and I don’t think that’s a good idea; if the wrong flop comes out I’ve turned my hand into a pot committed bluff; I’d just get it in pre.

I don’t know – this just really sucks that I am even talking about this.
 
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