do you fold two pair when the villian shoves

say youre holding
AsQs utg +2 and raise 3x
sb calls
bb calls
flop comes Ad 4c Qc
you bet 1/2 pot
sb folds
bb shoves all in
what do?


been in a situtation like this twice called both times
villian shows 4d4s
am i ****ing up or just bad luck?

both times, this was early in the tournament 5 dollar buyins not some crazy shhit

You have top two pair and most likely have your opponent crushed.

In order to be less than a 2:1 favorite here at worst, villain would have to have flopped a set. It's unlikely he has AA or QQ given the cards and play. It's possible he'd have 44 and just flat your raise, but I'm reshoving every time here. If villain woke up with a pair in the blinds and flopped trips after flatting my raise, that's just variance. I think the profitable play here over time is not to fold.

I'd be guessing villain has a flush draw and perhaps the Ac for a pair, and then just chalk it up to variance when he flips over 44.

Pretty much always call lol. Unless villain is SO nitty that he literally shows up with nothing worse than a set. Don't worry about it too much. Calling seems great to me.

I think you have to call him, because he could have a flush draw, or four flushed with a pair of aces.

Flopping a set is the least likely scenario. If he shows a set, consider it as variance and move on. In my opinion, there is no walking away from this hand.

Not enough information... Post the hand chief, so we know what we're looking at... (w/o results...) but i would say it's "bad luck"... happens tho'... get over it and move on Hipps... learn to read when a dude might be playing u on a set... happens to the best of us...

In the hand you posted I'm calling. You just got unlucky. Villain can turn over lots of hands you have beat.

blackHIPPY said:

say youre holding
AsQs utg +2 and raise 3x
sb calls
bb calls
flop comes Ad 4c Qc
you bet 1/2 pot
sb folds
bb shoves all in
what do?


been in a situtation like this twice called both times
villian shows 4d4s
am i ****ing up or just bad luck?

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i can say this unluck, sometime this hapened, board coordinated, and he can push range KJsc ,AT+ .to say exactly need to look at stats...

you said it was very early in the tournament, so i'm saying it's not worth the call since you have no information on villain at all.

Early in the tournament is not that important to double up, you will still have many opportunities to chip up and get more information on everyone else on the table.

fold, 44 beats you!

I will not fold here with 2 biggest pair. The opponent may have 44 but there is also a lot of other hands that could play in this case all-in. Sometimes we have to stick to stronger hand type set.

I would fold preflop UTG with 9 Seated.
I could open with this from LP/Button.

what kind of villain are you facing?
some villains will not call you a raise 3x with a low pair against two players, is simply bad poker, so if you have more information about the villain`s range you could have more information

this kind of players who flat a bet with low pair against two villains (bad players) must be labeled so you can take a proper decision, because i`ve seen this move before several times and if you have labeled the villain is easier to take them but if you don`t have information then you have to pay and if lose, as you did, it was a badbeat against you,

but other players, worse than that, they simply go allin after the flop no matter if they get a set or not, they just do it because is their game, for them is recreational so they don`t care about buyins

consider this, the chances he has to hit a set in the flop are less than 15% (which doesn`t guarantee him being ahead since it could be a better set, if you have pocket queens or pocket aces, or you can hit a Q or an A in turn or river and get a full or could be a flush or a straight ), basically they are winning around 10% of time so if they are betting with a 3x raise they are losing money here

so this kind of player should be isolated as you recognize them because they are going to play like this and will give up their chips fast, but time to time they can damage your stack too,

If you fold two pair against a villain then you should quit from the table because you will never beat anyone.

No escape from this hand - most of the time you will be getting it in against flush draws, maybe straight draws against some villains, even AK, AJ, A4 or Ace rag with a club against particular players, you made a good play, don't worry about it hippy.

kmichaels said:

If you fold two pair against a villain then you should quit from the table because you will never beat anyone.

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So what your saying is..... There are NO spots where folding two pair is correct? Guess again dude. Hippy... DO NOT listen to that lol.

it depends on the situation. If its early on in a rebuy/addon tourny, you get a lot of donk shoves from my experience (people trying to accumulate a big stack in the early stages, and people are loose because of the rebuys). Call here, but its different i guess in a normal mtt. Maybe a little higher preflop 4x, just to eliminate any small mid pairs. I think you were just unlucky. Its happened to me a few times. The profitable play here is probably stiil to shove

I'm snap calling in this spot. Its obvious your opponent flopped a club draw or even a straight and flush draw so your probably at least 60% 40% he's less likely to have a set in this situation so I'm never folding there.

yeah you're right dealio. the odds are too much in your favour. its profitable over long term. especially for lower stakes, where there are more donks

jj20002 said:

what kind of villain are you facing?
some villains will not call you a raise 3x with a low pair against two players, is simply bad poker, so if you have more information about the villain`s range you could have more information

this kind of players who flat a bet with low pair against two villains (bad players) must be labeled so you can take a proper decision, because i`ve seen this move before several times and if you have labeled the villain is easier to take them but if you don`t have information then you have to pay and if lose, as you did, it was a badbeat against you,

but other players, worse than that, they simply go allin after the flop no matter if they get a set or not, they just do it because is their game, for them is recreational so they don`t care about buyins

consider this, the chances he has to hit a set in the flop are less than 15% (which doesn`t guarantee him being ahead since it could be a better set, if you have pocket queens or pocket aces, or you can hit a Q or an A in turn or river and get a full or could be a flush or a straight ), basically they are winning around 10% of time so if they are betting with a 3x raise they are losing money here

so this kind of player should be isolated as you recognize them because they are going to play like this and will give up their chips fast, but time to time they can damage your stack too,

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What are you talking about xD its early in the Tournament and opponent has plenty of fold equity so the call pre flop was perfect on his half, now as for after the flop, this is where you can call him a bad opponent
reasoning, because he shoved, and he had no idea where opponent stood, you have 2 pair but opponent doesnt know this, you bet pre, you cbet, he shoves, hes prety much hoping you have hit big so you can call it, hes getting no value out of his set which makes his play bad, as for your call with the 2 pair, as alreeady said by a few others, but ill adjust it slightly

a DOUBLE UP here means nothing, you need to watch the table and see opponents tendancys if they have the tendancy to get the chips in with a mediocre hand, then this is an easy call, but if they dont have that tendancy you could be behind, its not always the way to look at it "oh look i have Top two pair" it means nothing really your early and you can gain chips risk free once you have a nice read on the table
the other way to look at it is, its early in the tourney so you havent invested much time, so you can call here and be happy you made the mistake now rather then later

blackHIPPY said:

say youre holding
AsQs utg +2 and raise 3x
sb calls
bb calls
flop comes Ad 4c Qc
you bet 1/2 pot
sb folds
bb shoves all in
what do?


been in a situtation like this twice called both times
villian shows 4d4s
am i ****ing up or just bad luck?

Click to expand...

You are making the mistake I have been making. In the past I would of bet half the pot even if there was a FD on the board not really thinking about pot odds. Because you only put a half bet pot into the pot you are giving the SB a chance to chase his/her flush. I am not putting the SB on AA or QQ or they would of 3bet instead of just calling your raise. If you had bet closer to the pot the SB if chasing the FD would of possibly folded if he takes pot odds seriously.

What was this? Was it a donkament?

Forget about the FD probability as I didn't notice villain shows 44

I should read more carefully

I usually lost sets when I bet half the pot on a FD because I was giving them the right odds to call, doh me

BB with the pocket 4s merely checks the flop?

I'd call the all-in. Has happened to me a few times as well. As for $5 buy-in tourneys, still plenty of donks running loose in there

Anyone who says you should have folded must be psychic.

Barring any obvious tell on the villain, this is a no-brainer call.
You just ran into awful luck, but this call in the long run is profitable, you can not lay down top two pair given the sequence you told us.