Do you fold pocket Aces here?

It's the very first hand of the tourney and your on the button with 9 players and 6 players ahead of you shove all in. Do you call for a massive 6x chip lead at the start of tourney or do you chuck it away?

And the answer is.... It depends. Sorry. Technically speaking A-A will make the most money over time when played against as many opponents as you can get. The key here being over time. In the short run, it will obviously be beaten very, very often against that many opponents.

So..... are you willing to get it all-in on the first hand knowing that the vast majority of the time you'll be busted, but on the rare occassion when it holds-up, you'll have a huge chip lead? Depends upon your tolerance for pain I suppose.

It's probably not the ideal answer. But, it's the best I've got. For me, if it was a low buy-in event I'd probably shove and pray. If it were a more significant buy-in, especially if I felt I could do well in this particular tournament, I'd probably wait for a better opportunity.

I know some on here will disagree, but that's the pragmatic approach. Say its a $20 daily tourney at your local casino - easy call. Say its the wsop main event and you saved for 2-3 years to play and flew in from overseas to get there - not so easy anymore. In that situation, I fold because its probably a once-in-a-lifetime event and I want to be around awhile just to enjoy the experience.

Big_Rudy said:

And the answer is.... It depends. Sorry. Technically speaking A-A will make the most money over time when played against as many opponents as you can get. The key here being over time. In the short run, it will obviously be beaten very, very often against that many opponents.

So..... are you willing to get it all-in on the first hand knowing that the vast majority of the time you'll be busted, but on the rare occassion when it holds-up, you'll have a huge chip lead? Depends upon your tolerance for pain I suppose.

It's probably not the ideal answer. But, it's the best I've got. For me, if it was a low buy-in event I'd probably shove and pray. If it were a more significant buy-in, especially if I felt I could do well in this particular tournament, I'd probably wait for a better opportunity.

I know some on here will disagree, but that's the pragmatic approach. Say its a $20 daily tourney at your local casino - easy call. Say its the WSOP main event and you saved for 2-3 years to play and flew in from overseas to get there - not so easy anymore. In that situation, I fold because its probably a once-in-a-lifetime event and I want to be around awhile just to enjoy the experience.

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i agree with every thing you said and in the same situation with small/large buy ins i would call for a low toruney and fold them for a descent tournament.

David_Lill said:

It's the very first hand of the tourney and your on the button with 9 players and 6 players ahead of you shove all in. Do you call for a massive 6x chip lead at the start of tourney or do you chuck it away?

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Heh, the old-time version which I first heard in late 1980s in a Commerce Casino Tourny, made it the first hand of the $10K Main Event....

The Pros at the time pretty much split 50/50 on the answer if it was the ME. Of course, at that time, there were not 7000 entries at the time which I would think changes the answer many would give today. Maybe not :marchmell

What a horrible spot because you know folding is bad in general, but calling vs 6 people in a multiway pot isn't going to be ideal. As you can most likely predict, at least one is going to hold an ace and highly probable that all aces have been taken meaning you have no outs for hitting your set and a single pair AIPF vs 6 people isn't going to be enough. I'd have to think suited connectors or any two cards in this postion would have me feeling more comfortable lol than holding even a pair of aces. I'm not really comfortable when there are two all-ins before me and holding aces even though it's a snap call, as you well know the people involved lessens your chances drastically in winning with a single top pair.

As for calling, I'm not sure I can fold to be honest, even early in a tournament it seems daft to fold. By the way, is this a freeroll/rebuy/low buy-in? Obviously it has to be one, in which case it's an easy call. I can't see it being in a decent sized buy-in tournament but I think you have to call. Folding is out of the question.

I never fold aces. You just have to realise if you lose with AAs its not your fault and that's just the game of poker.

Anyone who folds overestimates their skill level. Calling in an expensive tournament makes even more sense as you'll be up against better players who you won't be outplaying. I'd snapcall 1st hand in any BI and it's not paticularly close.

Obviously a very unlikely scenario, I'm pretty sure that mathematically its never correct to fold AA pre flop on the first hand of a tourney. Over the long haul I think you would clearly come out ahead by taking that action, but I certainly understand the dilema if you are in a high buy in event that you probably won't get many other opportunities to play in, you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you are > 50% likely to get knocked out on the first hand. Of course, this is probably irrellevant because what high buy in event are you going to have 6 players shove all in ahead of you? I mean if we're debating it with AA what are the other 4 calling with after the initial shove? I could see something similar happening in a low buy in event and i think its a snap call.

David

I would fold AA if it was just 2 people all in.
AA is 1 pair.
No way i'm risking my tournament in this situation on 1 pair.

slobasaurus said:

I would fold AA if it was just 2 people all in.
AA is 1 pair.
No way i'm risking my tournament in this situation on 1 pair.

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lol

BlueNowhere said:

Anyone who folds overestimates their skill level. Calling in an expensive tournament makes even more sense as you'll be up against better players who you won't be outplaying. I'd snapcall 1st hand in any BI and it's not paticularly close.

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Of course folding Aces is just ridiculous. In general though you're never happy I don't think in calling vs 6 people, not even sure of the odds, I'd be surprised if you're much of a favorite, that you would only have 20-30% chance of winning the hand and with at least one extra player holding an ace which is highly probable.

Of course to fold is daft, in any buy-in but I think if this was a $10k ME and you're used to play even $100 games event and it happened, I think "a snap call in any BI and not even close" is false I'm sure I would tank thinking do I want to take a most likely only a 25%-30% (If that) of winning this hand in the biggest tournament of my life in such early stages, still I think I'd make a reluctant call though.

By the way, in general if you had 6 people shoving in front of you, and each snapping each other off then I would have to make the assumption that the vast majority of them are really bad players, therefore taking a fold with aces with such little equity is +EV long term playing against these particular players and most likely out playing them in future hands and taking their stacks eventually.

hmm

"Anyone who folds overestimates their skill level"

smiles......

BlueNowhere said:

Anyone who folds overestimates their skill level. Calling in an expensive tournament makes even more sense as you'll be up against better players who you won't be outplaying. I'd snapcall 1st hand in any BI and it's not paticularly close.

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slobasaurus said:

I would fold AA if it was just 2 people all in.
AA is 1 pair.
No way i'm risking my tournament in this situation on 1 pair.

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That's daft, I don't think even early in a tournament this is a good.

David fold vol 2

Hey bro if your not confident in your ability to win the tournament, then gamble it up.....
However if you ever become very skilled in math, reads, patterns, and basic psych. think about this.
If you call in the hand you mentioned there is huge chance you will loose.
If you call with 2 all ins in front there is still a chance you will be out.

slobasaurus said:

Hey bro if your not confident in your ability to win the tournament, then gamble it up.....
However if you ever become very skilled in math, reads, patterns, and basic psych. think about this.
If you call in the hand you mentioned there is huge chance you will loose.
If you call with 2 all ins in front there is still a chance you will be out.

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Folding Aces with 6 all-ins, I agree early on is somewhat questionable based on the equity but I still think you have to call. Aces all in vs 2 people, to ever fold and contemplate folding is stupid, plain stupid. This has nothing to do with anyones confidence in outplaying anyone else. You seriously think the best players in the world, Phil Ivey etc would fold aces when facing 2 all-ins vs two rookie players just because he can out play them? No...of course calling is the right option as "long term" it's profitable no matter what.

Poker is all about having an edge and having more equity when the chips go in the middle. Sure it's a gamble to a degree calling Aces all in pre, but you're always at least even in equity (assuming he has aces too) and obviously 99% of the time you're way in front as you would expect.

There is a chance no matter what, unless you hit the absolute nuts that there will be a chance you will be out. It's like saying when you hit TPTK and someone has a weaker ace and they go all-in and some how you know he has a weaker ace, are you telling me you would fold here because there is a "chance" he will hit is weaker card and bust you?

I think you theory is just stupid in that situation. I guess you would fold Aces vs any under pair or any two cards too as it's a "gamble" as nothing in poker is 100% unless you are 100% to win the hand, so someone with 2,8 vs you aces, you fold?

slobasaurus said:

Hey bro if your not confident in your ability to win the tournament, then gamble it up.....
However if you ever become very skilled in math, reads, patterns, and basic psych. think about this.
If you call in the hand you mentioned there is huge chance you will loose.
If you call with 2 all ins in front there is still a chance you will be out.

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If you're confident in the ability to properly play a big stack throughout a tournament then you should relish the opportunity to have 7x the average stack on the 2nd hand of the tournament. I put this in poker stove with AA v KK v QQ v JJ v TT v AKs and the Aces were still almost 40% equity. If you were put in this same situation 5 times, the guy that calls with the aces gets 2 opportunities to win the tournament with a starting stack of 7 times what everyone else has while the guy that folds gets 5 opportunities to win the tournament with a normal average starting stack. If you know how to play a big stack, I would bet any amount of money that the guy with 2 tries with 7x the starting stack is going to final table more often than a guy who is folding aces preflop that gets 5 tries with a normal starting stack.

ramdeebam said:

Of course folding Aces is just ridiculous. In general though you're never happy I don't think in calling vs 6 people, not even sure of the odds, I'd be surprised if you're much of a favorite, that you would only have 20-30% chance of winning the hand and with at least one extra player holding an ace which is highly probable.

Of course to fold is daft, in any buy-in but I think if this was a $10k ME and you're used to play even $100 games event and it happened, I think "a snap call in any BI and not even close" is false I'm sure I would tank thinking do I want to take a most likely only a 25%-30% (If that) of winning this hand in the biggest tournament of my life in such early stages, still I think I'd make a reluctant call though.

By the way, in general if you had 6 people shoving in front of you, and each snapping each other off then I would have to make the assumption that the vast majority of them are really bad players, therefore taking a fold with aces with such little equity is +EV long term playing against these particular players and most likely out playing them in future hands and taking their stacks eventually.

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In the ME would be one of the more clear cut cases to call if you don't usually play that high. In a tournament like that you are mostly up against better players and playing it is probably -ev so even a slight +ev spot has to be taken. Maybe people like Ivey and Hellmuth would find a fold, I don't know. I think you could only justify it in a low BI event where you're playing deep against bad players. Even then I wouldn't fold.

Gotta call. If I fold and the Aces would've held up, I'm probably playing pretty tilted, at least until the table breaks up. Someone else hitting a set is still 8-1 if I'm not mistaken, and if the board pairs we counterfeit other 2-pair hands. If it's the WSOP ME, then I flip over the A4 I mistook for bullets, proceed to make my wheel, and give someone else a bad beat story

ramdeebam said:

...of course calling is the right option as "long term" it's profitable no matter what.

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That's the key. You're NEVER getting to the "long term", especially not in high buy-in, live tournaments. IMO calling v. that many opponents is actually -EV short-term (for that particular tournament) (assuming original scenario of 6 other shovers, not just 1 or 2). So I'd take the +Life-experience/enjoyment EV play and fold (grudgingly).

BlueNowhere said:

In the ME would be one of the more clear cut cases to call if you don't usually play that high. In a tournament like that you are mostly up against better players and playing it is probably -ev so even a slight +ev spot has to be taken. Maybe people like Ivey and Hellmuth would find a fold, I don't know. I think you could only justify it in a low BI event where you're playing deep against bad players. Even then I wouldn't fold.

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I think this is more of a personal choice based upon WHY you are playing the ME. Many, many players, realistically, have nearly zero chance in this tournament and are there simply to enjoy the experience. Nothing wrong with that, and in that case there's no way I'm calling 6 shovers on the first hand. Relax, enjoy the atmosphere, have a good time. You're not Phil Ivey, and you're not going to be.

BlueNowhere said:

In the ME would be one of the more clear cut cases to call if you don't usually play that high. In a tournament like that you are mostly up against better players and playing it is probably -ev so even a slight +ev spot has to be taken. Maybe people like Ivey and Hellmuth would find a fold, I don't know. I think you could only justify it in a low BI event where you're playing deep against bad players. Even then I wouldn't fold.

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Yeah I know what you are saying, but there are pretty awfully bad players that participate in that event too. The thing is though, if you had 6 players before you all-in, you can rest assured that they are god awfully bad players just for all the calls, they can't all be holding Aces and at best will be holding a middle pair or some overs making them the most fish of all players for contemplating even calling a shove to start with. That's why I think you would have to think that these players at the table are so bad, that folding Aces here might be optimal so you can outplay them and get better +EV spots vs them..

The post in general is kind of stupid as it's unlikely, even in low buy-ins for 6 people to be all, it does happen though - I've had it myself but this is mainly freeroll play or rebuy play so either way, I call as this situation would next to never happen in a live tournament or decent sized buy-in tournament unless it's a rebuy.

Big_Rudy said:

That's the key. You're NEVER getting to the "long term", especially not in high buy-in, live tournaments. IMO calling v. that many opponents is actually -EV short-term (for that particular tournament) (assuming original scenario of 6 other shovers, not just 1 or 2). So I'd take the +Life-experience/enjoyment EV play and fold (grudgingly).

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I'm talking in general +EV spots long term, regardless of tournament buy-in/tournament structure/live or online. You can't just look at each individual tournament and base a decision whether it's +EV for "that" particular tournament because it's pointless thinking EV to start with if you are going to pick and choose when to apply it and in which tournaments.

Obviously long term when you take into all the equity of each hand vs Aces with however many people who shove, it's always +EV long term for aces to call in this spot.


At the end of the day, depending on the tournament, if it's in your normal buy-in range and just your normal tournament then it's an insta call I'm just not happy.but if it's out of your comfort zone and you will never get the chance to play in such a big event like this, I can see some people folding quite easily in this spot.

ramdeebam said:

The post in general is kind of stupid as it's unlikely, even in low buy-ins for 6 people to be all, it does happen though - I've had it myself but this is mainly freeroll play or rebuy play so either way, I call as this situation would next to never happen in a live tournament or decent sized buy-in tournament unless it's a rebuy.

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Agree 100%. Online, low buy-in or freeroll, 100% snap call. In unrealistic theory of ME situation, FOR ME, difficult fold, but fold none-the-less.

ramdeebam said:

At the end of the day, depending on the tournament, if it's in your normal buy-in range and just your normal tournament then it's an insta call I'm just not happy.but if it's out of your comfort zone and you will never get the chance to play in such a big event like this, I can see some people folding quite easily in this spot.

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Again, agree 100%. this is exactly the point I was making in the very first post in this thread.

I think winning poker tournaments is about chip accumulation, not survival. The real money in tournaments is at the final table, not by min cashing. You get to the final table by acquiring chips. A great player with 7x the starting stack size of everyone else in the tournament is going to do a lot of damage in that tourney. Look at this scenario, you take a professional tournament player and have him put up $50K and then you give him 2 options:

A) He can enter the next 5 WSOP main events and start with the normal 30,000 chip stack

OR

B) He can only play in 2 of the next 5 WSOP main events, but he starts with 210,000 chips while everyone else starts with 30,000 chips.

I'd be shocked if any great tournament player would pass up option B as it gives them a much better opportunity to final table/win the main event.