Do you call an all in with a draw?

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CANDYMAN1414

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I recently got bumped out by someone chasing after I pushed. We both were sitting with about 14k in chips and I raise preflop to 1500, he calls. I have AKo with a flop of A 7 8 (2 hearts A & 7). I bet 3k he calls. Turn 2 clubs. I push and he calls flipping over 9 10 hearts. 6 on the river knocks me out.
I dont understand this call, especially when there is only 16 people left and we both are sitting 3rd and 4th in chips. I know the number of outs are there but do you really put your tournement life on a draw? When sitting in a position to cash? (Top 12 get paid)

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doomasiggy

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Never calling on the turn no. But would check raise all in with his holding on the flop.

The reason is because with his outs he's flipping against tptk; plus he's got fold equity if he check raises.

However flat calling his draw all the way through was fairly bad. Especially since if the third heart comes up you aren't going to stack off.
 
BigCountryAA

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I'd definitely get all of my chips in with his hand and that flop. I like the above poster would get it in on the flop as a Semi bluff. I'll either take the pot or if called I have all the outs that I need to make the play justified. With it being so close to the bubble most people are going to let you take the pot with a play like this.
 
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Shufflin

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Yeah, flopped draws are pretty powerful if there is a lot in the pot. I think we're looking at about 2-1 against completing -- if 2 draws are there, even better.

Make a note on this player, as they seem to be gunning for a top 3 spot, rather than sweating it out over ITM. You won't be able to abuse them on the bubble, as they'll choose ev+ play over hanging in for a min-cash...
 
JusSumguy

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Call a small bet, fold to a push on the turn. 16% chance of hitting the river. It was a stupid call that came through.

Did you friend him? You should, you'll prolly wanna see him again.

-
 
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Ranny

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Open ender and flush draw, odds are worth it. Should have out put you all in on flop though.
 
dmorris68

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In the hand given, as played it was pretty bad. But to your more general question of "Do you call an all-in with a draw?," as with nearly all things poker, it depends. There are never any hard yes/no answers to these.

You have to obviously consider the strength of the draw, i.e. a gutshot vs small fd vs nfd, number of cards you hold to the draw (i.e. 2 or 3 on board), single vs combo draws, etc. Plus effective stacks, pot odds, a made hand like a pair to go with the draw, villain tendencies, tournament/bubble position, etc. all must be considered. In some situations a call could certainly be the right play.

You don't mention blinds but from your 1500 open I'm guessing 250/500 or 300/600? If so, I consider 2.5x-3x is a bit steep at those blinds and your stack. Assuming it is 250/500 then you have 28bb and are also OOP. Without knowing further details that's a pretty hefty stack to commit with a 1p hand and no significant draws. So I have to ask if you're perhaps a bit too married to TPTK hands as it seems you were more than ready to stack off "your tournament life" on the turn, when he could have sets and 2p hands that are crushing you here since he did call two raises already (I count at least 13 combos that have you beat on the flop, and you don't have any strong draws yourself). Again depending on the situation I may very well ship TPTK here, but I'm inclined to believe this may not be one of those situations.

I'd have probably played this a little slower and controlled the pot size a little better so that you weren't so committed by the turn. Suggest dropping your opening size at these levels and betting smaller post-flop unless you know you're getting it in (in which case get it in sooner rather than later with a hand like this as the fold equity contributes to your EV).
 
long_bong

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In the hand given, as played it was pretty bad. But to your more general question of "Do you call an all-in with a draw?," as with nearly all things poker, it depends. There are never any hard yes/no answers to these.

You have to obviously consider the strength of the draw, i.e. a gutshot vs small fd vs nfd, number of cards you hold to the draw (i.e. 2 or 3 on board), single vs combo draws, etc. Plus effective stacks, pot odds, a made hand like a pair to go with the draw, villain tendencies, tournament/bubble position, etc. all must be considered. In some situations a call could certainly be the right play.

You don't mention blinds but from your 1500 open I'm guessing 250/500 or 300/600? If so, I consider 2.5x-3x is a bit steep at those blinds and your stack. Assuming it is 250/500 then you have 28bb and are also OOP. Without knowing further details that's a pretty hefty stack to commit with a 1p hand and no significant draws. So I have to ask if you're perhaps a bit too married to TPTK hands as it seems you were more than ready to stack off "your tournament life" on the turn, when he could have sets and 2p hands that are crushing you here since he did call two raises already (I count at least 13 combos that have you beat on the flop, and you don't have any strong draws yourself). Again depending on the situation I may very well ship TPTK here, but I'm inclined to believe this may not be one of those situations.

I'd have probably played this a little slower and controlled the pot size a little better so that you weren't so committed by the turn. Suggest dropping your opening size at these levels and betting smaller post-flop unless you know you're getting it in (in which case get it in sooner rather than later with a hand like this as the fold equity contributes to your EV).


Dido +1
 
tbdbitl

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I'd have probably played this a little slower and controlled the pot size a little better so that you weren't so committed by the turn. Suggest dropping your opening size at these levels and betting smaller post-flop unless you know you're getting it in (in which case get it in sooner rather than later with a hand like this as the fold equity contributes to your EV).

Absolutely dm! It's amazing how many people will keep thinking TP TK is the nutz! Not a fan of this out of position betting by OP either! From your own perspective, you have to ask yourself in this position of the tourney how thrilled are you to keep pushing a drawing hand yourself? And, then how thrilled are you to ONLY have TP TK with a flush and straight draw out there?
 
BigCountryAA

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In the hand given, as played it was pretty bad. But to your more general question of "Do you call an all-in with a draw?," as with nearly all things poker, it depends. There are never any hard yes/no answers to these.

You have to obviously consider the strength of the draw, i.e. a gutshot vs small fd vs nfd, number of cards you hold to the draw (i.e. 2 or 3 on board), single vs combo draws, etc. Plus effective stacks, pot odds, a made hand like a pair to go with the draw, villain tendencies, tournament/bubble position, etc. all must be considered. In some situations a call could certainly be the right play.

You don't mention blinds but from your 1500 open I'm guessing 250/500 or 300/600? If so, I consider 2.5x-3x is a bit steep at those blinds and your stack. Assuming it is 250/500 then you have 28bb and are also OOP. Without knowing further details that's a pretty hefty stack to commit with a 1p hand and no significant draws. So I have to ask if you're perhaps a bit too married to TPTK hands as it seems you were more than ready to stack off "your tournament life" on the turn, when he could have sets and 2p hands that are crushing you here since he did call two raises already (I count at least 13 combos that have you beat on the flop, and you don't have any strong draws yourself). Again depending on the situation I may very well ship TPTK here, but I'm inclined to believe this may not be one of those situations.

I'd have probably played this a little slower and controlled the pot size a little better so that you weren't so committed by the turn. Suggest dropping your opening size at these levels and betting smaller post-flop unless you know you're getting it in (in which case get it in sooner rather than later with a hand like this as the fold equity contributes to your EV).

Dito +2 best explanation so far.
 
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Weissr

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That is a pretty ridiculous draw he had tho, Flush, open end straight, 3 of a kind, 2 pr, would all win. Agree with the flop re-pop tho.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I think it is important for you to understand this is not a bit unusual - right or wrong or whatever your viewpoint or style might be.

The right answer is of course - it depends.
I give him kudos for his balls - he went for the win and not just the cash. It was a "monster draw" and for some folks that's all the way or the highway.
For me one factor (and there are many) would be whether I think I can outplay everyone or if I think I am in over my head. If I feel confident I am in control I might just let it go and continue to play - but it is a juicy opportunity that would be hard to ignore.
Another factor, and not an optimal one but one I have made some horrible calls with before (so i know it exists) - have I been getting cards? The old "Patience my ass, I want to kill something" factor. You don't say what the read on this guy is but alone is huge in determining action - and of course first thinking ahead to how you want him to respond to that action. Based on your post it seems you shoved to get him to fold (since you are a bit bewildered why he would call). So I have to ask - what was it about him and his play that made you think he would fold - or did you just assume he would because of the tournament life risk?

But yeah, dmorris nailed it.

To paraphrase you, "...do you really put your tournement life on TPTK?"
 
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ddeely1

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I try to never call all in with a draw unless its a good combo draw (combos of pairs, flush draws, straight draws). I will always call all in with open end straight flush draws. Just make sure you are drawing to the nuts and try to shove first instead of calling
 
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deeshark420

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calling on a draw

wow i have been in this situation alot lately and going out right before the money stinks im glad im not the only one that has made the same call i see.people i have talked with have said no you dont put yourself out at that point in a tournament at least not till you get into the cash then its alot of choices and sometimes they are just not the right ones and we find out too late.been waiting to see more on this glad ya posted goodluck in the future and thats my answer.tournament life is everything sometimes i hate folding as well.:)
 
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sagiPOTM

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huh, its kinda funny calling big bets w8 for straight in that phase expecially on river, its ok to call for turn, but all in on river..pfffff...I got similar situations also vs some people...

If i want to go for a draw i would just go agressive and go all in, not calling insane bets...expecially if I go for a flush draw, some times just push all in and risk since luck in poker is most important :)
 
duggs

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raise smaller and bet/bet/shove.
your sizing is pretty horrendous man because it just causes really awkward stack sizes
 
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emirlidan

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I would have shoved after the flop gone all in and I doubt he would have called but you never know with some of these players still shoving all in with top pair and the best kicker would have been a good thing to do
 
duggs

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I would have shoved after the flop gone all in and I doubt he would have called but you never know with some of these players still shoving all in with top pair and the best kicker would have been a good thing to do

no it wouldnt it would kill all of your value
 
otari

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That sucks, I got kicked knocked out in a table game in a similar situation. I sat down with $100, worked my way up to $350. flopped a straight, check raised on flop, went all in on turn...the guy called chasing a heart draw, and the river *drumroll* heart -_-
 
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beerzy

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question that involvs ICM 2 once there are just 18 players left, but i would def fold turn as played...
He played it to donkish and passive, he should have raised you on the flop what would usually gave him a free turn card...
 
solid4

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In my opinion Why? why risk all your chips when you have enough to cash? I play tight as possible til in the money.You can not win a mtt in one hand but you sure as hell can lose it with one hand.
 
long_bong

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It all depends on your equity and your plan going into the hand, gotta be prepared for actions post flop when you commit to a pot ect.And always go for the win and play your hands in the most ev plus possible situation.
 
duggs

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In my opinion Why? why risk all your chips when you have enough to cash? I play tight as possible til in the money.You can not win a mtt in one hand but you sure as hell can lose it with one hand.

this is a really really flawed view
 
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baudib1

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In my opinion Why? why risk all your chips when you have enough to cash? I play tight as possible til in the money.You can not win a mtt in one hand but you sure as hell can lose it with one hand.

Because you're not playing to cash.
 
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