do u think this player made the right call against me

blkmoney12

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I was playing on intertop poker this morning in the 5.50 400 gte tournament that started with 4000 starting chips. I had 10,200 chips the blinds were 500-1000 with a 100 chip ante i was under the gun with pocket 88s rather then just shove i decided too limp under the gun. so it get folded around to the chip leader at the table in mid position the player decides to raise 4200 chips it gets folded around too me i decided to smooth call my 88s the flop comes 3-6-10 with two clubs on the board. I had thought that this player had raised with just two over cards like ak or aq i didnt put him on a hand like a-10 so i decided too push my last 6200 on my pocket 88s. so the original rasies instant called. too put hand in context 10500 in the pot before the flop after all the chips went in it was up too 24500. the player had ak on the turn he hit his a and took me out i was alitle upset that he call on just ak with no draw. I would have understood if he had two clubs with the ak king but too me too call on just ak without hitting the flop and me pushing all to me was a bad call. What do u think of this play?
 
Lucothefish

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I really prefer the villain's play to yours. His flop call wasn't that bad.
 
Four Dogs

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He's ahead of alot of hands you shove with, flush draws and straight draws namely, and his overpairs will usually be good when they come on the turn or the river. I don't see you bluffing much in this situation so I think his call was break even at best but not horrible. You say he's the chip leader? Your 6bb shove is a mosquito bite to him, you've got to expect a call. And in this case you want it too. You're on life support and must double up to get back in the game.

FWIW. Shove Pf and cross your fingers.
 
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kmbpoker

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this isnt 1989 or even the 90s,when players would at least consider mucking a missed flop with AK. today it is instacall, especially when your allin is not much more than they invested preflop. i would have at least thought about it but in his spot i think your pretty much gonna get called.
 
OpenTheCan

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I agree. You were going to get called. He was the chip leader and he could have thought you had 2 over cards or were just trying to push him off the better hand. We know your thinking, but we dont knowght you had or what you were trying to do. Remember that.
 
SicKBeATz

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Your shoving range is or should be very wide here, you only have 6bb's after the pf call. Many players shove there with a lot less, any draw, a worse hand that they think might be good AJ AQ, or even a bluff. I don't think the other player raised 4bb's preflop with AK with the intention of folding for 6 more after the flop, especially when it's that dry. I know I wouldn't especially being CL.
 
blkmoney12

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i had pocket 88

i had pocket 88 with the hand in question
 
SicKBeATz

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i had pocket 88 with the hand in question

I know what u had but the question was did he make the right call against you. So unless you told him what you had before you shoved I was going through what I think his thought process might be.

On another note with your stack in relation to the blinds you should be shoving preflop there and hope for a race that way you're not check folding 6bb's to a scary flop that you might even be ahead in such as QJ7, or making a suckout that you normally wouldn't by folding to an Ahi flop.
 
left52side

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Well IMHO I think givin position and blind ammounds (you haveing roughly 10 bb). I probbly would have forced him into A preflop decision, I definatly would have shoved preflop and put him to a test,being said he probbly would have called with A/K and chip lead to boot,but never the less you put him on the spot. By flatting his raise and giving him opportunity to shove flop regardless then you are at his mercy. he in turn probably figured big czrds from you or even maybe club draw,and with the ammount in the pot,it was only another what 6,200 for him to call you shove. so he was gettig at least 2/1 on money,and as mentioned was chip leader to begin with and you at ten big blinds.
So im sorry I think you just ran into A race situation that obviously didnt hold up.
My humble advise next time in this situation you make the agression and dont price them in so much to make a over call, and shove and put them to the test. at least when you see there cards you will know you are in a raece,and maybe next time it will hold up.
In these big tournaments you will always have to fae a race situation at least once in it,that being said you just cannot afford to make mistakes in the mean time.
I wasnt there o I dont know what type player they where,and what type player you were,but if it was me in villian situation and depending how close the cash was,I might have even folded if you shoved preflop and I was not abolutly priced to call from middle position with A/K.
 
frozensprx

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Yes I think his play was completely normal and you would be hard-pressed to find somone who will fold AT on a T high board when the opponent's shove is only 5bb. I think you should've shoved preflop for sure, however, since you limped you also possibly could've limped then shoved over his raise, just as an option. It would've given him good odds to call but depending on his playstyle you would have a small amount of fold equity.
 
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Well IMHO I think givin position and blind ammounds (you haveing roughly 10 bb). I probbly would have forced him into A preflop decision, I definatly would have shoved preflop and put him to a test,being said he probbly would have called with A/K and chip lead to boot,but never the less you put him on the spot. By flatting his raise and giving him opportunity to shove flop regardless then you are at his mercy. he in turn probably figured big czrds from you or even maybe club draw,and with the ammount in the pot,it was only another what 6,200 for him to call you shove. so he was gettig at least 2/1 on money,and as mentioned was chip leader to begin with and you at ten big blinds.
So im sorry I think you just ran into A race situation that obviously didnt hold up.
My humble advise next time in this situation you make the agression and dont price them in so much to make a over call, and shove and put them to the test. at least when you see there cards you will know you are in a raece,and maybe next time it will hold up.
In these big tournaments you will always have to fae a race situation at least once in it,that being said you just cannot afford to make mistakes in the mean time.
I wasnt there o I dont know what type player they where,and what type player you were,but if it was me in villian situation and depending how close the cash was,I might have even folded if you shoved preflop and I was not abolutly priced to call from middle position with A/K.

I dont think he'll have any trouble calling a small stack shove with AK. But shoving 88 preflop is the correct play most of the time. I think Hellmuth would say that you can still call and fold if a bad flop comes and thats smart as well. But getting him to fold AK when he already has you put in 40% and has to call 6k more with a pot already at around 10k is not gonna happen a lot of times. Some players might fold but I think calling is the right play. He knows you probably dont have him crushed so he has 6 outs or possibly even ahead.
 
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I was playing on intertop poker this morning in the 5.50 400 gte tournament that started with 4000 starting chips. I had 10,200 chips the blinds were 500-1000 with a 100 chip ante i was under the gun with pocket 88s rather then just shove i decided too limp under the gun. so it get folded around to the chip leader at the table in mid position the player decides to raise 4200 chips it gets folded around too me i decided to smooth call my 88s the flop comes 3-6-10 with two clubs on the board. I had thought that this player had raised with just two over cards like ak or aq i didnt put him on a hand like a-10 so i decided too push my last 6200 on my pocket 88s. so the original rasies instant called. too put hand in context 10500 in the pot before the flop after all the chips went in it was up too 24500. the player had ak on the turn he hit his a and took me out i was alitle upset that he call on just ak with no draw. I would have understood if he had two clubs with the ak king but too me too call on just ak without hitting the flop and me pushing all to me was a bad call. What do u think of this play?
IMO to limp UTG with 88 is just terrible , and villain played the hand just fine he raised pre flop with a good hand - Then probably put you on a draw on the flop after investing 4200 pre flop hes not looking to fold for a additional 7k as hes priced in to call and thinks that even if you connected with the flop he has outs to beat you . He has a mountain of chips and can afford to be speculative in a situation where he can take someone out of the game for cheep.
 
Four Dogs

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Shoving pf is the best play here IMO but limping isn't horrible. You really need to double up soon to get back in the game and limping encourages later positions to try to steal the pot with a raise which you can easily come over the top with. You will get called and you will have decent equity when you do.

Your chances of getting called when you shove PF from early position with less than 10BB's are still good, and when you do get called you will be facing a tighter and more dominating range of hands which you will have less equity against.

The reason limping is worse than shoving is that if you don't get raised you'll have to see a flop out of position with a weak hand and probably have to fold after investing 10% of you're stack. Not money well spent IMO.

Shoving PF also gives you another way of winning the pot, namely, everyone folds. Usually late in a tournament everyone is short stacked and trying to make the money. You'll often take it down without a fight. Yeah, you need to double up but winning the blinds and antes with a med pocket pair isn't a bad result and will buy you some time.
 
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I think villians play was correct. Your play was timid. Limping with only 10 bbs and then calling with 1/2 your remaining stack looks like you are on a draw, not that you are starting with a pair. You should be all in preflop or not in the hand at all.
 
left52side

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I dont think he'll have any trouble calling a small stack shove with AK. But shoving 88 preflop is the correct play most of the time. I think Hellmuth would say that you can still call and fold if a bad flop comes and thats smart as well. But getting him to fold AK when he already has you put in 40% and has to call 6k more with a pot already at around 10k is not gonna happen a lot of times. Some players might fold but I think calling is the right play. He knows you probably dont have him crushed so he has 6 outs or possibly even ahead.

Oh I completly agree.
I wasnt saying he wouldnt call, I was just saying they might think about ita tad longer than average. IMHO they would be a fool not to call.
The heck with the A/K, would be hard pressed not to call any two cards with that big of pot and them only having less than 6 bb after raise .
 
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I think the play seems completely normal.
 
XXPXXP

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giving the draw board with bluff, and his AK may have 6 outs, so AK could call here, since you may not hit the boarding either.
that's what i am thinking if I were the chip leader.
 
cat24550

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I would have taken the chance with the AK even offsuit. The highest card showing is 10 no chance yet for full house, He has lots of outs and chip lead, so I do think he made right decision. I understand you had to take the risk to stay in the game, but don't think you would have outted him even with all in bet. cat24550
 
duggs

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shove pre, his call is std v most people but probably bad v you
 
IntenseHeat

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Was that a typo? You said $400 GTD. Did you mean $300? If so, I was railing that tourney. If this was the tourney I am thinking of, I stepped out for a moment and missed that particular hand, so I can't be 100% sure, but the guy who had the chip lead for a while in that tourney was one of those players that really had no business still being in at that point. He was one of those guys that plays bad and gets lucky. He made some horrible calls earlier in that tourney. I saw him get them all-in pre with A-2 off against A-A and hit trip 2s. I saw him call a pre-flop all-in with Q-4 suited and win with Q high straight against J-J and K-K. After that they made it easy for him. Here is a guy demonstrating a complete lack of poker skill, and they were just shoveling chips over to him. He would open shove from early position and some idiot would call him with 4s. The point is that you weren't getting him off A-K, pre or post, unless you had him outchipped, and probably not even then. I don't think you could have done anything different except to fold while you were still holding the best hand. Again, if I am correct, this was at the final table of that tourney and you finished either 6th or 8th. I'm thinking 6th. I've seen you play. In fact, I have your table open right now. I see you're in the money again. Anyway, don't sweat that shit. I don't see a way that you could have played it that would have changed the outcome. He just caught a card on you.
 
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BlackMoth5

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Bad call on his part, but not a horrible call yet it depends on how deep he was, in my opinion. The deeper you are the more you can take chances with hands that haven't developed yet.
 
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I agree with the majority here. Considering your chip stack and the blinds you should've been in there in pre-flop. Regardless of when you did it i think the outcome is the same because he isnt going anywhere pre-flop with AK and being chip leader. To answer your question i dont think he was wrong to call you there though.
 
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I hate when that happens, He should have just folded. It always plays that they get lucky and win, when should have just stayed home
 
dadsrus

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I dont think it was a bad call at all you were short stacked compared to villian its poker and in the long run its the Big stacks job to take players out and increase their own stack size with a hand like big slick its hard not to a hard call on his part. just my opinion cheers
 
Marcwantstowin

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Hi

I think that his call was acceptable in view of the fact that he had two overcards and that AK often wins a hand without a pair. I know that I would feel aggrieved like you but suggest you should have raised all-in pre-flop which may have caused him to fold in fear of a higher pair, say Queens and above?
I think pre-flop you was only about a 55% favourite to AK therefore this should be considered in future.

You should use this play as and experience and move it into your poker style. I wish you good luck in the future.

:)
 
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