Do tournaments have different starting hand ranges to cash games?

NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

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Some people here have been saying how awesome some of Gripsed's free videos are for learning poker, so I thought I would try one out.

I agree Gripsed is awesome. Annoying or not it's a legit source.

I don't know if cash games have different starting hand ranges to MTTs, but in the first Gripsed video that I watched he shows tier 1 hands as being:

AA KK QQ JJ AKs AQs AJs ATs KQs

I haven't seen KQs appearing in any of the tournament books that I've read so far and ATs has generally not been treated as tier 1, yet he specifically says that you should be happy getting all of your money in with any of these hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB74LOr3YD0

22:04

I feel nervous shoving AKo and I probably wouldn't feel confident shoving KQs in the early stages of a tournament, unless it was desperate times and I had less than 10bb, for example.

Is he talking about cash games?
 
tARsh

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Shoving.... open pushing is almost never a good play in tournament - as a general rule.
Obviously there are plenty of mitigating circumstances, short stack (way lower than 10 BBs though and M/CSI is a better gauge once antes kick in), villain dependent, how many limpers are in the pot, your position etc etc.

I do play very differently in MTTs than Cash.
And my cash game is much more static hour to hour or day to day than in MTTs.
As a tournament progresses your play should evolve as needed.
I would never shove AKo aip early in a tournament unless it was against a very weak player or I was trying to isolate out a short stack against other relatively similar or deep stacks and I was sure they weren't trying to trap.
Or a Rebuy - not a re-entry.
AKo vs 27o the 27 will win ~1/3 iterations while that's clearly +EV that's the penultimate scenario barring the AQ or KQ etc.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

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Thanks. Actually the question was whether people still include KQs and ATs in their starting ranges - or ever did.
 
Daniel72

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I would avoid such trouble hands early.

When i am short later, i am happy to get dealt these hands :)

But if you very deep and good @ postflop play, have fun :)
 
tARsh

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Whether people do, I'm sure many do.
I don't think its the best use of those hands however at all.
 
thetick33

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Some people here have been saying how awesome some of Gripsed's free videos are for learning poker, so I thought I would try one out.



I don't know if cash games have different starting hand ranges to MTTs, but in the first Gripsed video that I watched he shows tier 1 hands as being:

AA KK QQ JJ AKs AQs AJs ATs KQs

I haven't seen KQs appearing in any of the tournament books that I've read so far and ATs has generally not been treated as tier 1, yet he specifically says that you should be happy getting all of your money in with any of these hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB74LOr3YD0

22:04

I feel nervous shoving AKo and I probably wouldn't feel confident shoving KQs in the early stages of a tournament, unless it was desperate times and I had less than 10bb, for example.

Is he talking about cash games?

Well first I dont like getting whole roll into any hand preflop or happy about any hand myself that is not already the nutts lmao.

I am a person who wants to see flops go from there. Depending on stakes player level etc.. my number of hands go down I play raise call with etc..

If never go all in I dont lose.

So patience and instinct.

Position etc.. is just too many factors. Is this person likely from history to all in 55 from in first position after blinds? I probably call qj suited if catching cards too many factors involved.

I take good notes on people. The really good ones I know from here give respect more than most people I play lol. Yet have seen their styles a little and results etc.. Folded ak suited in an event another forum today. Cause is a lot of people from here two all ins was qq kk and the tourney structure is kinda turbo early like 5th hand. I wont do that often again lol with that forum. This one probably. Even though they had quality hands the structure really was right for a call. Was first event with them watched a bunch of tables the level of play is not as good as here imho. Is some of same people though so will be careful but that was my one chance then went card dead totally and was basically blinded off lol early.

So would I call all ins with all those hands no depends on too many things would I push all in off bat with those no not unless blinded down.

I want my aa kk hands to pay I constantly am playing them different mixing up game. Is mostly instinct though for those hands. Feel of what is going on want to get fully in fully paid. So have to think it through. Board has to make sense they hold up etc..
 
thetick33

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Thanks. Actually the question was whether people still include KQs and ATs in their starting ranges - or ever did.

I do early out of position even if suited also how the boards are working for me am I catching cards

Anything suited connected if can limp in I do it. Is just too many combinations for legit nutt hands.

If not suited again ace ten kq depends who am playing with and are my cards flopping? How aggressive the people I am playing play etc..

Tooo many factors hope helped a little but this is too wide open. Is too many things you really need to be thinking about besides what two cards are ok to play.

The situations matter the player levels and styles matter your luck at that times matters position matters where are you if in a tournament chip stack wise just too many factors.
 
horizon12

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In the tournament your range of hands depends on the size of the stack and what the players are in the blinds....

In cash games stack size is always more than average, and it is necessary to polarize range hands depending on the position that our game was less exploitable for opponents.. In the tournament there is no need, because we are not able add more chips and always different opponents....
 
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The hands are the exact same, the only difference is the game play. Tournament play is usually much more conservative than a cash table, since the objectives are different and you can't just leave a tournament table when you are up. With that being said, the hand strengths are the exact same at either table....
 
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i lost twice today with K J in the same tournament
so unlucky.....
 
alittlepoker

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I play much tighter in mtts then i do in cash and i think most players do it seams alittle different when you by in a cash table as apposed to the mtts
 
NoWuckingFurries

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I play much tighter in the early stages of MTTs and SNGs.
 
Poker Orifice

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It is always situational & dependent upon a bunch of different factors.
ie. I might be open raising UTG with 75s... 'it depends'

some very scarey responses in this thread :eek:
 
NoWuckingFurries

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"It depends" is a suitable answer in a lot of situations in poker, but not all. For example, I definitely wouldn't be raising 75s UTG during the first two levels of a MTT. So to say "it depends" on a specific question like this one is an answer that might as well not be posted because it is of no use whatsoever. You insult the posts of other people in this thread, yet provide a response yourself that doesn't actually answer the question. At least if you had said "It depends whether you prefer a LAG or TAG playstyle" it could have potentially been useful.

In Collin Moshman's book on SNGs he specifically says that in the early stages of a SNG you can raise AJs from early position but should ditch AJo. He definitely doesn't suggest that ATs or KQ should be in your starting hand range at that stage of the tournament, but Gripsed has specifically said in his video that you should be happy getting all of your money in from any position with any of those hands.

Hence my question on whether cash games use different starting hand ranges, because the range that he is suggesting is looser than I would want to use in the early stages of a MTT or a SNG.
 
Steve2777

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Well basically i would not play those hands in early position , but if u have really good hands then u should play early to get some chips otherwise blinds will be big after and u have nothing
 
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If you are bigstack you can play small pockets or suited connectors when you are in position and keep the pot small until you hit something interesting, you can take lots of chips if you hit set/straight/flush and villian has top pair.
If you don't have a good postflop game then play very tight when you are deep and play the strongest hands aggresively
 
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kozikpro

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yes that great video but thats is poker u need play some more hands u r not regular :) its realy tight play
 
Poker Orifice

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At least if you had said "It depends whether you prefer a LAG or TAG playstyle" it could have potentially been useful.

I guess... if you decide to play with a particular style. Personally I'm adjusting according to the other players I'm sitting with, along with stack sizes, etc.


An early level spot from UTG in a SnG is different than most MTT's.

Generally speaking, playing hands like KQ, AJ, AT, OOP can often get you into some really bad spots as these hands tend to have reverse implied odds.
 
Poker Orifice

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In Collin Moshman's book on SNGs he specifically says that in the early stages of a SNG you can raise AJs from early position but should ditch AJo. He definitely doesn't suggest that ATs or KQ should be in your starting hand range at that stage of the tournament, but Gripsed has specifically said in his video that you should be happy getting all of your money in from any position with any of those hands.

Surely you can see that this is situational.. 'hence' 'it depends'. I highly doubt Gripsed is suggesting stacking off 100-200bb's with KQo. (maybe we should ask him to come & post in this thread?)


Also, as far as starting hand ranges goes for cash vs. tourney.... of course it's going to be different. There are many mitigating factors & therefore 'it depends'. In cashgames we're generally playing 100+ effective bb's (give or take a few) ... it's not that often you see many ss's on 'online' cash tables these days. In tournaments, the blinds are ever increasing & we need to make adjustments accordingly.
 
jayrock334

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For me its about stack size and position early on im aggressive with those tier one hands but no when to let em go
 
K

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early in tournament (first 3 levels or so) are pretty much the same as a cash game, except you should probably be tighter because you will inevitably have the guy who goes all in with crap and you won't know if it's legitimate until you see an orbit or two. Then adjust.

late in a MTT i find there barely is any postflop game, the hands tends to end up allin before the flop (and if you don't make it that way somebody else will), and this is where this range he's talking about tends to come in. the range varies a bit (i'd add 1010 and 99, maybe drop the KQ... you run into a lot of weak ace). even if you are big stacked, realize this is the smaller stacks range usually and act accordingly.
 
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Yes, it should be different. There are other factors influencing your choice in starting hands.
 
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