Defending the BB in Small Stakes SNGs

I have been playing small SNGs at pokerstars but among other things I have unable to defend my bb with any authority at the last table, even though small stacks seem to go all in as regular as clockwork, I know at this stage I should have a pretty good idea about who I am up against but I have had my stacks shortened up by the river a few times lately can u help me out?

poleo said:

I have been playing small SNGs at Pokerstars but among other things I have unable to defend my bb with any authority at the last table, even though small stacks seem to go all in as regular as clockwork, I know at this stage I should have a pretty good idea about who I am up against but I have had my stacks shortened up by the river a few times lately can u help me out?

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defend your BB less...position is key and it sucks playin from the BB without a big hand..steal more when your on the button and CO

defend = 3bet light occasionally.

defend =/= call

does that help?

PattyR said:

defend your BB less...position is key and it sucks playin from the BB without a big hand..steal more when your on the button and CO

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Yeah it's true. Defending BB with nothing is nonsense (tho Patrick Antonius often does this). If its sure that the raiser just want to steal, a resteal with Ax or bigger pairs is ok.

Personally I think you're better off if you try not to think of it as "your" blind, big or small. Would you feel the need to defend your ante? Once the chips are in the pot, you have no more ownership of them than any other chips at the table. Play your hand based upon your cards, the action ahead of you, the stage of the tourney and the chip stacks around you. Trying to defend something that isn't yours could easily be a recipe for disaster.

I too have this problems sometimes. Its really bad in the micro sitngoes because everyone is willing to push with darn near anything. That's why I would really like to get my bankroll big enough to be able to play at a higher level

Defending your BB in tourney play is an outdated, old school, useless, stubborn mentality that will cost you much, much more than it will make you in the long run, especially in micros. I love trapping idiots that defend their bb light. It's probably one of my most profitable plays.

superman4all said:

That's why I would really like to get my bankroll big enough to be able to play at a higher level

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No offense, but I would re-evaluate this statement if I were you.

cjatud2012 said:

No offense, but I would re-evaluate this statement if I were you.

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I wouldn't. I think this is a valid statement. In the super micros the play is horrendous and many decent players will fare much better at $10buyin level (or perhaps $5) in SNG's.

As far as OP's thread here goes... typically you don't want to be playing from the blinds at all. Instead of looking for a reason why you should fold the blinds, look for a good reason why you think you should play from the blinds (most often you won't find one).

Poker Orifice said:

I wouldn't. I think this is a valid statement. In the super micros the play is horrendous and many decent players will fare much better at $10buyin level (or perhaps $5) in SNG's.

As far as OP's thread here goes... typically you don't want to be playing from the blinds at all. Instead of looking for a reason why you should fold the blinds, look for a good reason why you think you should play from the blinds (most often you won't find one).

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^^ This is good advice. There are very few good reasons to play from the blinds.

As for the SNG's, I agree that playing the $1 STT's in not profitable in the long run-- not because of the play, but because of the rake, which is usually around 20-25%. The $2 STT's are very beatable, at least on Full Tilt. Most people invest a lot of chips in marginal situations during the early levels. If you just play tight, you can be very successful. I find that the players in the $5 STT's are a little tighter, but the same strategy is effective. We probably just have differing opinions on this issue, which I understand and respect, but I believe it to be highly improbable to show a profit at higher limits without having mastered this simple strategy first.

Thanks for the advice, very helpful. I'm going to put a couple of your suggestions into practise.
Different game but can you offer my some advice on this hand too.
Ist hand of 6 table live torny. $ 25 buy in no re buy. 8 at the table I am utg + 1 dealt 6c6d limp in, 2fold no raises, flop kc6h10c, check to me I raise 4x bb 2 fold, 3 call, turn 4c, all check, river 8c I check btn bets 5bb, fold btn gets called wins hand A hi flush. I tried to protect my hand but should I have put in a huge post flop bet and hoped the table would fold? I could not see this happening with so many callers, interestingly the two at the showdown only had 1 club each.

Raise pre flop. This will inflate the pot making it less profitable for poor players to call the cbet on the flop. As for the turnplay it's a difficult spot with so many callers but with fewers players seeing the flop you could save yourself this tricky spot. As it would have been an easy c bet too.

poleo said:

Thanks for the advice, very helpful. I'm going to put a couple of your suggestions into practise.
Different game but can you offer my some advice on this hand too.
Ist hand of 6 table live torny. $ 25 buy in no re buy. 8 at the table I am utg + 1 dealt 6c6d limp in, 2fold no raises, flop kc6h10c, check to me I raise 4x bb 2 fold, 3 call, turn 4c, all check, river 8c I check btn bets 5bb, fold btn gets called wins hand A hi flush. I tried to protect my hand but should I have put in a huge post flop bet and hoped the table would fold? I could not see this happening with so many callers, interestingly the two at the showdown only had 1 club each.

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"It depends", your table obviously appears to be full of Loose Calling Stations... but something to consider when you flop a set on a flop with two of the same suit, if some of your opponents are apt to lead out on this flop, consider check-raising.... if they're all just passive calling stations, then lead out for value (but also to protect your hand)... in this spot I'd likely bet pot. You don't necessarily want the drawing hands to 'fold' so you can take down the pot on the flop,... you want to bet out an amount that would make it be a mistake for them to call you with their drawing hand. Depending upon how deep the stacks are I might raise preflop instead of just limping in, but don't really mind the limp either (especially seeing that your table appears to be passive callers with nobody 3-betting preflop.... that is if this hand described is typical of how they were playing).

superman4all said:

I too have this problems sometimes. Its really bad in the micro sitngoes because everyone is willing to push with darn near anything. That's why I would really like to get my bankroll big enough to be able to play at a higher level

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lower limits are far easier than higher buy ins my friend... get to the 15+ buy ins and your left with 4-5 regulars and a 3-4 fish.. lower your looking at 1-2 regulars and the rest fish... generally fish play loose early(bad) and tight later (really bad)

so when we play super tight early on, conserving our stack, then when the blinds and stack sizes are right, we turn up the aggression and shove all in super loose on their blinds.. they dont adjust to it and we make profitable play after profitable play...


if you play in a higher buy in, every one generally plays the same, they adjust to you, so you need to adjust to them..
example

i play the 15+1 sng on stars, was doing quite well, but after a while my roi drops and i go on a downswing.. variance perhaps? no, say im in the sb and its folded to me, i have around 10bb's i shove any two cards, it used to be a profitable play for me, until the regulars adjusted and start calling looser, with around 35% of hands its perfectly fine to call me there... so i needed to adjust to that, so i folded the last 20% of hands out of my range, all the pure junk, 6 3 8 4 etc.. now its a mistake for him to call with that same 35% and once again, the play becomes profitable... and thats only one facet of how you need to make constant adjustments to your game at higher buy ins..

anyways enough babble.. to summarise, perhaps you should master and beat the lower limits before even thinking of moving up.. you will most likely get owned..

AtiFCOD said:

Yeah it's true. Defending BB with nothing is nonsense (tho Patrick Antonius often does this). If its sure that the raiser just want to steal, a resteal with Ax or bigger pairs is ok.

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patrik antoniius among others is able to defend his blind regularly, as he is more than comfortable of playing oop, with less than optimal holdings, and he can do so profitably... this makes it less likely someone will steal his blinds with absolute junk, his blind isnt up for sale, so if your going to steal expect to play a pot with him.. something i probably wouldnt want to do to often

so unless you can play really really well postflop its something i wouldnt encourage.. and in a sng, its something i would say definately not.. early you should be playing strong holdings only... late, its generally calling an all in.. or reshoving.. defending is rarely something that comes up in a sng for me..

Thank you again for your time and thoughtful advice.

poleo said:

I have been playing small SNGs at Pokerstars but among other things I have unable to defend my bb with any authority at the last table, even though small stacks seem to go all in as regular as clockwork, I know at this stage I should have a pretty good idea about who I am up against but I have had my stacks shortened up by the river a few times lately can u help me out?

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Don't feel obligated to defend your bb. In sng's when the small blind is shoving into you (as they should be doing often when they have 12bb's or less) then you can use this as a loose guideline for when to call those shoves:

10bb shoves - 66/AT+
5bb shoves - 22/A2+/KT/QTs/JTs

(If your stack is shorter than theirs you should go by your stack size not theirs.)

dakota-xx said:

Don't feel obligated to defend your bb. In sng's when the small blind is shoving into you (as they should be doing often when they have 12bb's or less) then you can use this as a loose guideline for when to call those shoves:

10bb shoves - 66/AT+
5bb shoves - 22/A2+/KT/QTs/JTs

(If your stack is shorter than theirs you should go by your stack size not theirs.)

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the only problem with this is that non regular sng players wont shove as loose as they should... guidelines are fine. but its up to you to be able to put players on a range of hands. and call/fold accordingly..

say im against a regular player who i know.. sb vs bb situation, i know hes shoving on my blind 80% of the time.. im going to adjust my calling ranges to around 20-25% of hands..

against a non reg whos shoved my bb, i may tighten that range up further as i dont think hes shoving as often as he should

on the flipside.. shoving into a regular sng player's bb, you should be pretty loose.. but if hes calling you with like k 5 10 8, those type hands, you need to tighten your shoving range.. to say 70%..

against a non reg sng player's bb ill be shoving 100% of the time, as they just dont call often enough to make the play -EV

poleo said:

I have been playing small SNGs at Pokerstars but among other things I have unable to defend my bb with any authority at the last table, even though small stacks seem to go all in as regular as clockwork, I know at this stage I should have a pretty good idea about who I am up against but I have had my stacks shortened up by the river a few times lately can u help me out?

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I'm not sure what the train of thought is that has one thinking that they should 'defend their blind with authorit' in a SNG?
Sng's are alot more about putting villain's on ranges, & knowing what are good shoving ranges, what pot odds makes calling with Top40% +EV when getting 2to1 on high blinds when the call doesn't leave you crippled, OR if you're short and the call is profitable. << this is just for starters but hoping to give you an idea that the thought process of 'defending blind with authority is wayyyyyy off the mark. Perhaps in a higher buyin sng (where there's regs. & players who actually recognize what you're doing) you could/would/should consider calling a SS shove light (when you have them well covered) in an effort to keep others from aggressing on your blinds (< this is really table/player/situation specific).
In a nutshell..... just dump your frigg'n blind and keep your chips for when you can get them in when you're ahead (you want to maintain your stack & pick your spots, not play each hand like it's a cash game). Keep your eye on the big picture.... ie. it's not the battles... it's the WAR!!

WiZZiM said:

the only problem with this is that non regular sng players wont shove as loose as they should... guidelines are fine. but its up to you to be able to put players on a range of hands. and call/fold accordingly..

say im against a regular player who i know.. sb vs bb situation, i know hes shoving on my blind 80% of the time.. im going to adjust my calling ranges to around 20-25% of hands..

against a non reg whos shoved my bb, i may tighten that range up further as i dont think hes shoving as often as he should

on the flipside.. shoving into a regular sng player's bb, you should be pretty loose.. but if hes calling you with like k 5 10 8, those type hands, you need to tighten your shoving range.. to say 70%..

against a non reg sng player's bb ill be shoving 100% of the time, as they just dont call often enough to make the play -EV

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Oh definitely - hence the term "loose."

Eltaurete1963 said:

friend play sit and go is easy to play but difficult to master

are three faces

1.com are many blind in the beginning but you can raise and loosen more

2.In the middle of play games and have to play with selected letters and can not play with any high card

3.es where they play all-in or fold the blinds you can prque marta

as they say in my village.,. the river or ravine

friend these are the ways to play sit and go

men good luck in the poker tables

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your friend is on drugs... tight early, slowly accumulate, then shove fold. take advantage of bubble and bad players who tighten up at the wrong time..

WiZZiM said:

your friend is on drugs... tight early, slowly accumulate, then shove fold. take advantage of bubble and bad players who tighten up at the wrong time..

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+1.

Why do you need ur big blind even late in the game? Fold away, maintain tight image, then steal the BB and SB from position with an all in shove.

Only time to defend your big blind is either with a good hand, or when the blinds are so high if you didnt shove all in with Ax you would have no stealing power.

Defending the BB is not worth the effort. When it's your turn and in position you ATTACK some one's else's BB. Put the pressure on them!
Easier to raise than call.

ya its 1 bb depending on the bb and your stack i wouldnt worrie about it to much you have to think though if a player is consistently raising your bb that has mostly is raising suited hands Alow if he has you stacked not much you can do unless you have a real hand that you can make a call with or push allin .also i think understanding table position will help you get better read on what the player could possibly be raising with use your postion like others guys said on button and what not. if bb is 100 and you have 1500 chips when then if the guy is stealling from you you just have 15 hands to make a move 100-200 150 -300 forget how the bb goes on stars but is good times to start making moves for players bb sb i think for sngs cause most players havent finished enough sngs in order to know when and how to build your stack to make the last 3 players consistently .only thing you can do is use your head and comen sence if guy raises your bb 6 times in row well lol

Never defend your big blind with nothing when u are short stack .This is my advice. Though ppl will try to steal your big blind, If u have nothing just fold. Even if u know the button is bluffing if u are the short stack u have 50 % to get out of the tournament right there. If u are middle stack or high stack then it is another thing. U can reraise , call or fold ... depdending on the readings.