Dealing with early all-ins

Grebbsy

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Over the last few weeks I've been trying to build myself a bankroll by entering micro-stake tournaments in the hope of being able to graduate to bigger ones eventually.

So far, a resounding lack of success...

What seems to happen time after time is this. First hand, two or three people shove all-in. Whichever of them has the best hand, or gets luckiest, rakes in all the chips of the others. That person then proceeds to go all-in time after time, knowing nobody can knock them out even if they call and get lucky enough to bust them, and in the meantime they're collecting the blinds every time.

I've tried sitting and waiting for good cards, but usually by the time I get something worth thinking of shoving back on, my chipstack is looking positively anaemic compared to the bully's.

I've tried calling their bluff, but it seems that every time I do, they flip over a high pair or something else that has me beat. I *know* they can't have a decent shoving hand every time they go all in, but when someone shoves on every hand how can you get a read on when they're bluffing and when they're for real?

Today it happened yet again. Finally copped pocket aces against one of these bullies and called them... only for them to turn over QQ and hit a third Q on the turn. Which I know is just lousy luck, but it felt like the last straw.

So what is the recommended method for dealing with idiots like this? (Other than playing in higher value tourneys where I assume such behaviour is less common, but until I manage to get a bankroll together I'm not in a good position to do that.)
 
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doomasiggy

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Call tight. The double up isn't worth it in the long run to call off light.
Shove lighter as you get short stacked.
I've tried calling their bluff, but it seems that every time I do, they flip over a high pair or something else that has me beat. I *know* they can't have a decent shoving hand every time they go all in,
Actually they can. If you're playing micros - and I assume you are - a lot of regs will just open jam any premium because they know someone will call off with like, KQs+, 22+, ATo+, QJs, JTs.
 
lpmduarte

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it´s really hard give you one answer, you need develop a strategy to play with this kind of players, maybe waiting for AA is not the only option, take a look and see in what position you are on the table, the stack of other players, take notes from players. Can be dangerous but with this kind of players i open a little more my game, still tight, but i have more starting hands, marginal hands, paying BB and waiting for AA, KK, QQ can be one option but is a expensive one! i can´t give you the answer you want, i am working on this point too. :) so good luck :) and i agree with doomasiggy, The double up isn't worth it in the long run to call off light.
one more thing, you lost with a pretty decent hand and with that hand you will won more than you will loose. Avoid tilt mode, learn with that experience and move on :)
 
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Daniel72

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If you're playing micros - and I assume you are - a lot of regs will just open jam any premium because they know someone will call off with like, KQs+, 22+, ATo+, QJs, JTs.
Yes i see this often. They call even with any suited two cards, any baby ace, any little pair and any paint cards ! :boxing:
 
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I have been that guy you hate but only in freerolls, figure bust out early and save time or get decent stack and then play poker. I will take the play tight approach against someone who does that in tournament though, they often but not always seem to get knocked right back down and I hope that my hand is the one that does it. The tight play can come in handy even if someone else takes them down as long as that person has watched you fold hand after hand because you may be able to push them off hands down the line.
 
left52side

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I am usually A rock in early micro mtts. Although I havent played one in sometime,when I did I was A rock. If you just sit and wait judge your table and let all the idiots knock themselves out,then go aboutyour normal play.
Dont even plan on doing much limping in the early stages just be a rock.
It might costyou a few chips early on but you will have timme to make up for it in the end.....
JMHO hope it helps.
 
Daniel72

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This is a very good strategy, there is also this school of thought: i want the chips of the bad players, who will spew and bust early and i don´t want let this chippies go to the good players.
 
aa88wildbill

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It's a good question, these types of players are usually in lower level buys, and freerolls. Patience is the key, find a good hand that you'll be heads up with them, and call. It doesn't have to be a premium hand, just a good hand. But there is some satisfaction that you can take the heart, players like this almost never win!
 
vinylspiros

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just play your game and pick your spots. esp in the beginning of the tournament as you descibe ,there is no reason whatsoever to call an all inner unless you have a premium hand. Cause the blinds of which you speak that the bully is stealing are worth nothing at this stage in the tournament. Just fold and dont get involved in these annoying situations untill the "all-in" madness cools down and the table dynamics get back to nromal. cause ive never played an MTT where things didnt cool down sooner or later. but usually later when people have created a descent stack and have spent a few hours in the tourney, they tend to play more solid.

My advice fold everything except the monsters.
 
steveiam

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just play your game and pick your spots. esp in the beginning of the tournament as you descibe ,there is no reason whatsoever to call an all inner unless you have a premium hand. Cause the blinds of which you speak that the bully is stealing are worth nothing at this stage in the tournament. Just fold and dont get involved in these annoying situations untill the "all-in" madness cools down and the table dynamics get back to nromal. cause ive never played an MTT where things didnt cool down sooner or later. but usually later when people have created a descent stack and have spent a few hours in the tourney, they tend to play more solid.

My advice fold everything except the monsters.

Good advice,this tends to be my style of play. Dont worry about being behind the big stacks who have gambled alot early on you will soon catch up if you play your monster hands right.
 
Grebbsy

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I don't care whether players like them never win, what matters to me is that I never win!

This exact scenario has happened twice more in the last two days. Both times I've sat there grimly waiting for two decent cards while Shovey McShovington has been rampaging all over the table. Both times I've finally called him, both times I've lost (99 against K7 when he hit both pairs, KK against Q8 when he actually flopped a goddamn full house...)

The trouble is that adopting this route, by the time I call, he generally has three to four times more chips than me and so he can afford to call my all-in with any old rubbish on the off-chance that he'll outdraw me on the flop. Even if I do catch him with his pants down he'll still have at least twice my stack.

I've wondered whether I ought to simply join the "go all in on the first hand no matter what your cards are" party, but the thought sticks in my throat. If I wanted to play bingo I'd go to a bingo hall, capische?
 
steveiam

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I don't care whether players like them never win, what matters to me is that I never win!

This exact scenario has happened twice more in the last two days. Both times I've sat there grimly waiting for two decent cards while Shovey McShovington has been rampaging all over the table. Both times I've finally called him, both times I've lost (99 against K7 when he hit both pairs, KK against Q8 when he actually flopped a goddamn full house...)


The trouble is that adopting this route, by the time I call, he generally has three to four times more chips than me and so he can afford to call my all-in with any old rubbish on the off-chance that he'll outdraw me on the flop. Even if I do catch him with his pants down he'll still have at least twice my stack.

I've wondered whether I ought to simply join the "go all in on the first hand no matter what your cards are" party, but the thought sticks in my throat. If I wanted to play bingo I'd go to a bingo hall, capische?
Tight is right in the long term, I have seen many of these players who seem to hit flops at will but that does not last for the whole tourney.They vary rarely reach the later stages because there game plan is based on luck
 
vinylspiros

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I don't care whether players like them never win, what matters to me is that I never win!

This exact scenario has happened twice more in the last two days. Both times I've sat there grimly waiting for two decent cards while Shovey McShovington has been rampaging all over the table. Both times I've finally called him, both times I've lost (99 against K7 when he hit both pairs, KK against Q8 when he actually flopped a goddamn full house...)

The trouble is that adopting this route, by the time I call, he generally has three to four times more chips than me and so he can afford to call my all-in with any old rubbish on the off-chance that he'll outdraw me on the flop. Even if I do catch him with his pants down he'll still have at least twice my stack.

I've wondered whether I ought to simply join the "go all in on the first hand no matter what your cards are" party, but the thought sticks in my throat. If I wanted to play bingo I'd go to a bingo hall, capische?
capische. It doesnt matter what his stack is and it doesnt matter if hes able to call you with junk(cause he has a huge stack). THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is how many BB you have when playing mtt's and your decisions should be based on this. why go all in with AK in a table where there are already 5 all inn's if you have 200 BB's?

who cares what the guys stack next to you is? the only thing you should be focusing on is making the right decisions that are EV+ for you. and one of these decisions might be to avoid the chip leader or even confront him but only if you have the right hand. In general ,my personal opinion is to avoid all ins when your very very deep preflop because someof the times you will lose and i dont know if it is worth it. I try to play small ball when very deep.

And try not to let the other peoples playing style make you tilt. BE solid. and play solid. these donks will be elimitanted sooner or later and you will most likely still be in i if you avoid making mistakes.

Sometimes in a tourney you can do everything right and you might still lose. thats just a reality of the game. the secret is to play you best game and if you lose, SO BE IT, but dont make other peoples bad play make u make the same kind of mistakes.
 
Lucothefish

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Did you know, in the entire 40 year+ history of the wsop nobody who has ever been chipleader at the end of day 1 has gone on to win? Early double ups are nice but they don't mean a lot.

So what is the recommended method for dealing with idiots like this? (Other than playing in higher value tourneys where I assume such behaviour is less common, but until I manage to get a bankroll together I'm not in a good position to do that.)

This is the equivalent of 'move up to where they respect your raises' and it's a fallacy. If you can't beat the micros for heaven's sake don't move up.

Widen your calling range a little vs the shovetards, but otherwise just be patient.
 
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doomasiggy

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I don't care whether players like them never win, what matters to me is that I never win!

This exact scenario has happened twice more in the last two days. Both times I've sat there grimly waiting for two decent cards while Shovey McShovington has been rampaging all over the table. Both times I've finally called him, both times I've lost (99 against K7)

Don't stack off with 99 early stages of a tournament unless the shover has like, 10bb or less.

when he hit both pairs, KK against Q8 when he actually flopped a goddamn full house...)

Unlucky.

The trouble is that adopting this route, by the time I call, he generally has three to four times more chips than me and so he can afford to call my all-in with any old rubbish on the off-chance that he'll outdraw me on the flop.

No he can't. Trust me, just wait until you have a good hand and stack off with it.
 
Grebbsy

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who cares what the guys stack next to you is? the only thing you should be focusing on is making the right decisions that are EV+ for you.

Stupid noob question: what does EV+ mean? It isn't in the poker glossary on this site :)
 
cheapseats76

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This happens in all the low limit freeroll games and I have learned to wait and see what there shoving with. Once you know there hand range you make your move. Don't wait for a monster, once you get a decent hand call them. I know that you are trying to build a roll but unfortunately at this level this is how the games are played for the first hour or so. I to am trying to build a roll and have had success, I won 3 bucks from the funsteps and turned it into 960 so don't get discouraged it can be done. Good luck on the felts!
 
Grebbsy

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who cares what the guys stack next to you is? the only thing you should be focusing on is making the right decisions that are EV+ for you.

Also, I always thought that a good poker player is constantly aware of relative stack sizes at their table, in order to adjust their tactics accordingly...
 
vinylspiros

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Also, I always thought that a good poker player is constantly aware of relative stack sizes at their table, in order to adjust their tactics accordingly...
Of course you should be aware of the relative stack sizes at the table. The reason i said that was because you seemed as if that was the ONLY thing that dictaated which decisions you would make.

In other words, it seems as though you are being put on tilt because some guy beat someother guy in a flip in the first or 3rd hand or whatever. what im saying is that you should follow whats going on at the table, keep in mind everyones stack BUT stick to your plan and dont get tilted cause theres a bully or whatever at the table. You must be able to adopt to the table dynamics whether that means to tighten up or to loosen up. Usually it would be advised to do the opposite of whats going on at the table. If the table too loose. then its good for u to tighten up.

If the tables too tight, then go ahead and steal some blinds with a wider range of hands if folded down to you on the cutoff or button(assuming villain doesnt tend to 3bet)

And on another note: Its abnormal playing to be shoving all-in whithin the first hands of a tourney unless its a freeroll or a rebuy or you have a monster, so try not to get carried away cause u see awhole lotta idiots doing it.
 
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steveiam

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Did you know, in the entire 40 year+ history of the WSOP nobody who has ever been chipleader at the end of day 1 has gone on to win? Early double ups are nice but they don't mean a lot.



This is the equivalent of 'move up to where they respect your raises' and it's a fallacy. If you can't beat the micros for heaven's sake don't move up.

Widen your calling range a little vs the shovetards, but otherwise just be patient.
You get idiots with lots of money as well, so moving up is not the answer just stick to you strategy and you will not go far wrong.
 
Karkus77

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as everyone said, play tight, wait for a big hand and double up off the crazy guy

with your examples you showed us, your basically saying you had a bad beat, and if you cant handle them, dont play poker, you got it in good, thats all that really matters
 
TEG2300

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The question about EV is a great chance to maybe cast some light on this question.
As I understand it, EV has to do with long term outcome rather case by case results, in other words probability of a scenario.
Here is an article about it here on CC: https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-expected-value.php
(Mods I know we can't have links but this is to the forum is that okay?)
I like this explanation:
"expected value is the amount of money a certain play expects to win or lose on average."

I think it is fair to say that as poker players that want to take the game past a recreational novice level it is key look at the long game. So, is it frustrating to have a guy shove every hand in a tourney? Sure a bit but when you look at the numbers of what the villain is doing his math is not as horrible as you might think. The initial shove is of course straight math if he has garbage it is a bad play. However once he has every one stacked at the table (assuming he is not a more skilled player than the rest) it might be the right play for him to eliminate all post flop play and take the skill out of the game. The good news for us as skill players is that we know that we can wait for a hand that can see all five cards face off with him and then force him to play our game once his chips are diminished.

The other silver lining I see here is the info it gives you about other players at the table. Who got frustrated and called light, who thought a baby ace would be a good call, all information you can use later in post flop play after the shover is long gone.

In summary patience and perspective are two things that will prove invaluable as you continue to refine your game.
 
vinylspiros

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The question about EV is a great chance to maybe cast some light on this question.
As I understand it, EV has to do with long term outcome rather case by case results, in other words probability of a scenario.
Here is an article about it here on CC: https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-expected-value.php
(Mods I know we can't have links but this is to the forum is that okay?)
I like this explanation:
"Expected value is the amount of money a certain play expects to win or lose on average."

I think it is fair to say that as poker players that want to take the game past a recreational novice level it is key look at the long game. So, is it frustrating to have a guy shove every hand in a tourney? Sure a bit but when you look at the numbers of what the villain is doing his math is not as horrible as you might think. The initial shove is of course straight math if he has garbage it is a bad play. However once he has every one stacked at the table (assuming he is not a more skilled player than the rest) it might be the right play for him to eliminate all post flop play and take the skill out of the game. The good news for us as skill players is that we know that we can wait for a hand that can see all five cards face off with him and then force him to play our game once his chips are diminished.

The other silver lining I see here is the info it gives you about other players at the table. Who got frustrated and called light, who thought a baby ace would be a good call, all information you can use later in post flop play after the shover is long gone.

In summary patience and perspective are two things that will prove invaluable as you continue to refine your game.
+1
 
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