Deal or No Deal? | Final Table Deals

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Reprise

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This past Sunday I entered a $120 tournament at foxwoods and managed to make it to the final table. When it got down to three handed the chip leader asks if we want to make a deal. As a rec player that plays mostly cash games I had no idea what the adjusted payouts should be. I did make a deal for X amount which I'll share later - negative EV on my part :( once I did a google search on ICM. Hell I even spelled it wrong the first time 'OCM'

Anyhow as a fun exercise, if you were in my spot where your phone was dead and you can't google search an answer, at what amount would you have made the deal for?

Details:
Payout
1st - $2100
2nd - $1500
3rd - $940

Stack Sizes
Villain 1 ~ 600,000
Villain 2 ~ 400,000
Hero (you) ~ 200,000

Blinds
8000 sb /16,000 bb / 2,000 ante
 
Grinderella

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ICM Deal

Hi there, I want someone to correct me if I get this wrong but to the best of my knowledge the calculation is as follows.

Total prize money available
= $2100 + $1500 + $940 = $4540

Stack sizes are:
600,000: 400,000: 200,000

Which can be simplified to:
3: 2: 1

So the number of shares of the prize money is 3 + 2 + 1 = 6 Shares

1 Share = ($4540 / 6) = $756.67

Villain 1 = 600,000 Chips = 3 Shares = ($756.67 x 3 ) = $2270
Villain 2 = 400,000 Chips = 2 Shares = ($756.67 x 2 ) = $1513
Hero(You) = 200,000 Chips = 1 Share = ($756.67 x 1 ) = $756.67

So the new payouts after the ICM deal should have been:


Payout
Villain 1 - 1st - $2270
Villain 2 - 2nd - $1513
Hero(You) - 3rd - $756.67


So without google or anything like that, you can just add up the prizes, divide by the ratios and work out the shares.

What did you get in the end?

G
 
AjsmenX

AjsmenX

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I would always accept deal just because of karma ;) but always would play as much better I can to be placed 1st
 
enolan

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The calc above is a Chip Chop i.e. split according to proportion of chips held.

An ICM split gives larger (compared to equivalent chip chop position) shares to the lower finishing positions.

In the example above the chip chop 3rd place award is less than the actual 3rd place amount, so a chip chop would not be worth even discussing.

I don't know how to do the ICM calc or I would write it here. But, at a glance I'd offer 1940\1500\1100 no matter what position I was in. I'm sure someone will add the ICM calc ...
 
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Athopkinson

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As enolan says the deal example above gives Kongyou less than you would get if you continued to play and busted out in third place. So I'd want more money than 940 before I'd accept a deal. I'd want to know why the chip leader is offering a deal
 
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Athopkinson

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Stupid tablet. I meant to add that the chip leader will loose 2/3 of his chips if villain 2 successfully plays an all in against him. So he may be worried. Personally, when it's down to three players I tend to play very aggressively. Worse that can happen is you come third.
 
tilan501

tilan501

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I usually accepted Deal, but I thinks it takes out so much of the game.
The heads up is great, really hard to play, so much about understading your opponent. It's great!!
Try playing some.
 
malakata19

malakata19

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Frequently as I have been able to observe in the ICM model it benefits the players with smaller stack of chips since the proportion favors them taking into account if there is an amount left aside for the winner. If chip chop clearly benefits the tournament leader at that time. Particularly I do not like to make a deal and I trust in my game to get as far as possible, but there are situations where a deal is the most favorable and it will depend on your stack.
 
MMello

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A chip chop only benefits the CL in tournaments like this.

However, in turbo/hyper tournaments (as some in my area are) we get to HU with less than 20BB each and I've chopped both times I got there because I don't want to gamble 1/3 of the prize pool left.
 
R

Reprise

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Hi there, I want someone to correct me if I get this wrong but to the best of my knowledge the calculation is as follows.

Total prize money available
= $2100 + $1500 + $940 = $4540

Stack sizes are:
600,000: 400,000: 200,000

Which can be simplified to:
3: 2: 1

So the number of shares of the prize money is 3 + 2 + 1 = 6 Shares

1 Share = ($4540 / 6) = $756.67

Villain 1 = 600,000 Chips = 3 Shares = ($756.67 x 3 ) = $2270
Villain 2 = 400,000 Chips = 2 Shares = ($756.67 x 2 ) = $1513
Hero(You) = 200,000 Chips = 1 Share = ($756.67 x 1 ) = $756.67

So the new payouts after the ICM deal should have been:


Payout
Villain 1 - 1st - $2270
Villain 2 - 2nd - $1513
Hero(You) - 3rd - $756.67


So without google or anything like that, you can just add up the prizes, divide by the ratios and work out the shares.

What did you get in the end?

G
As others have stated, in your example it's the 'chip chop' model where you assign a $ amount per chip. However in the 'chip chop' model it clearly favors the chip leaders as seen that the guaranteed payout for 3rd is $940 but as the short stack I would get less which make no sense.

Plugging this into an ICM calculator based on the payout/chips is:

1st: $1716
2nd: $1550.67
3rd: $1273.33

Btw, I made the deal for $1140 so left some money on the table but lesson learned for the next time.
 
smallfrie

smallfrie

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As others have stated, in your example it's the 'chip chop' model where you assign a $ amount per chip. However in the 'chip chop' model it clearly favors the chip leaders as seen that the guaranteed payout for 3rd is $940 but as the short stack I would get less which make no sense.

Plugging this into an ICM calculator based on the payout/chips is:

1st: $1716
2nd: $1550.67
3rd: $1273.33

Btw, I made the deal for $1140 so left some money on the table but lesson learned for the next time.

Yes this is correct. I always have my phone and have a ICM calculator on there. Here is screenshot of "Final Table Deal Maker" the free one I use (for Android)
 
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cwdignus

cwdignus

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In this case it is a good business to accept the deal
 
Grinderella

Grinderella

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Does anybody know how to show the ICM calculation? That would be really interesting to read.
 
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dejan85

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I dont like when some playe ris short stake and and want deal,and when is that player high stake than there is no deal.......
 
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Leaning also but small stack can bully situation

Thanks for posting the thread. Got the Apps loaded on the phone now when I need to deal with the situation. Got to practice some getting used to it. Was thinking initially to divide total prize by 3 and then apply additions and subtractions based on chip balance ratio. Prize pool of $4540 divided 3 ways is $1513.33 each. Few chip leaders are going to give up that much but it worth a try, if not so then its a negotiation. I think small stack can get the edge in negotiations because can do no worse then 3rd place money but can always double up a couple of times take the lead. Make's leader pay to not risk playing for 1st place money. Of course others will argue that any improvement to 3rd money is welcome money when on a short stack and is good to settle for. I say press your edge when you can.
 
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oldolm

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my result of deal or no deal is only about my opponent skills
 
playinggameswithu

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Deals

Usually these deal makings hurt the short stack and favor the large stack. The chips are only a measure of survival value with a NLH risk attached to them. So the chips are not worth money directly. If I was you I would see how many orbits you have then see if you can pick a spot to go allin with any pocket pair or AK. If not make the deal, if you can reject the deal.


What did you end up getting?
 
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