My current MTT strategy

medeiros13

medeiros13

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I just want to gather some opinions. I'm mostly a SNG player and I think that generally speaking, I'm pretty good in that format. (cash games are another story unfortunately) Lately (after seeing some monster MTT wins by CC'ers) I decided that I'm going to make my way into these. My approach is to try and win each bracket before I move forward (18,27,45,90,180) I just successfully won a 18 seater (probably technically considered a SNG though) and am now moving up to the 27 seater. My main reason for doing this is to train myself to be very disciplined in this format. In the SNG format, I have a good idea of when I can be aggressive, when to hold back, and when I have to make moves. In a MTT setting, I need to figure that out. IMO, the best way to do that is to play them and learn through your experiences.

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

Mods if this is should be in another forum, please move it :)
 
kmixer

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This is an interesitng thought process I am wondering what others think of this process of playi9ng and beating the 18 man game and then moving to the next level up. I assume they dont play the same so adjustments need to be made. I would never play an 18 man game the same way i would play a 180 man game that is for sure.
 
intiekkeko

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In my opinion this is an interesting process altho i'm not sure it will help you too much as most of the "big wins" we see are in huge fields compared to the relatively small fields you are looking at (even the 180's)

I will be interested to see how this works out for you

Good luck in your quest

inti
 
ripclawph

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i was wondering what is your criteria for moving up the ladder?
is it the # of wins?
is it the amount of BR?

it would be more interesting as well if you can show graphs of your progress.
 
medeiros13

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My criteria is to simply win each bracket before I move up. I'm still working on winning a 27 man...I've cashed a few times but haven't won it yet. I haven't been playing much this week but I usually play a 27 man along with a regular SNG and a cash game to help subsidize this experiment. As far as a graph, I'll see what I can do. I think Top Shark Pro allows for graphing.
 
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This is an interesitng thought process I am wondering what others think of this process of playi9ng and beating the 18 man game and then moving to the next level up. I assume they dont play the same so adjustments need to be made. I would never play an 18 man game the same way i would play a 180 man game that is for sure.

Not sure I agree. The only way I would necessarily play differently in an 18 player vs 180 (or any other for that matter) would be if the structure were materially different. If the blind levels are say 10 mins long in both and the starting stack were the same, then what's the difference? There would be a proper early, middle and endgame strategy. the benefit of playing some of the smaller sngs, I believe, comes from the fact that you have less people to work through to make a FT and hence you are able to gain FT and or HE experience for the endgame, which doesn't happen often enough in large fields for you to improve. Any thoughts on that statement?
 
medeiros13

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First of all, congrats on your run last night; I was watching other CC'ers in that 90 man and saw you at the final table. Your main point about making it to a final table and playing the same is generally true. However, due to the amount of players in the higher player tournaments, the mid game is much longer. I'm assuming that would really make you more aggressive so you don't get to the shove or fold point. That's why I'm taking the approach I"m taking with winning each mtt before moving up. I want to know how to play each and make good decisions as I move up.
 
medeiros13

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Dang, just finished 2nd in a 27 man :( Had him dead to rights and he got bailed out on a chopped pot. I'll try again later on
 
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Thanks, I needed that FT. Been running like A$$ lately.

True midgame is longer, but concepts are the same. It's all about how to play based on your stack size in relation to the blinds. You could actually find yourself rather short early and be playing push\fold way before the middle stages, or have a huge stack early and attacking short stacks way before the endgame. So ultimately if you keep position and your stack size and the stack sizes of others in mind when choosing which hands to play, an 18, 27, 45, 90, 180, 2000 all play the same; larger fields just take longer.
 
joe steady

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Yeah, I'm with MiguelCPA on this one. I'm not to sure that a 9 player SNG strategy would work in a larger MTT because the bubble approaches a lot faster so you're in push/fold mode a lot sooner, but there's a lot of similarities.
Good luck on moving up, keep posting your progress.
 
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Daniel72

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Most of the guaranteed´tourneys have a starting stack of 3000 chips, but the multitable sng´s like the 45mans or the 18ßman´s have 1500 chips. because of that yor play/strategy cannot be the same. There is more room for play in the bigger mtt´s, the smaller multitable sng´s have to be played in a certain way (push fold mode), there is no "creative" play...
 
Leo 50

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A single table SnG has such a shorter play time than a 27 man game
(unless you are very lucky and all the fish are swimming upstream :))

Usually a single table will run about an hour to an hour and 20 minutes.
A 27 man table can go twice or three times that length.

All of the games have the same breakdown of a early, mid and end game
but the middle in a larger tourney (even just 27) can be a longer and more tedious process.
Most of the times I have played and been knocked out has been in the middle.
You start getting antsy about stack sizes at the table, blinds going up
and your "m" and that KQ os starts to look like a monster.

Any success I have had in the larger tourneys has come from when
I have the time to actually play,
no distractions, no TV, no phone calls etc.
My losses have all been those where I have started a game
realized I have something else that is coming up
and then I start trying to win the whole thing too soon.

Patience!!
(I'm still trying!)

:cool:
 
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Ok, a few thoughts hit me here.

The problem with these methods is that you will become a jack of all trades, master of none. There are big differences between a 9, 18/27/45/90 and the 180, they're completely different games! It all goes on the payout structure; in STT there's a lot of value in being tight and basically "folding" ones way into the money, but in the 180 this is not true, one must take a lot of risks shoving over limpers because it is all about cEV for the most part, which encourages very aggressive play.

Basically, the 9 is the nits game, 180 is the maniacs game, and the others are in between(yes I'm exaggerating)


I really think this is a bad system, you'll probably get confused between the formats, especially when in push/fold mode. I could go on in detail about this but I think you get the point; pick 1 or 2 formats and stick with them
 
twoturntablez

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The way I see it, the larger the field, the better chance of having a nice big fat stack towards the end of the tournament, esp if you are playing tight abc poker. More players, more idiots.

Ive been playing mtts (tbh a lot of freerolls and cheap 10c games) and am now making the transition to much smaller games, for higher buyins.

Im not sure about the 9, 18, 27.... pattern, its working a little for me in reverse though!
 
medeiros13

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Ok, a few thoughts hit me here.

The problem with these methods is that you will become a jack of all trades, master of none. There are big differences between a 9, 18/27/45/90 and the 180, they're completely different games! It all goes on the payout structure; in STT there's a lot of value in being tight and basically "folding" ones way into the money, but in the 180 this is not true, one must take a lot of risks shoving over limpers because it is all about cEV for the most part, which encourages very aggressive play.

Basically, the 9 is the nits game, 180 is the maniacs game, and the others are in between(yes I'm exaggerating)


I really think this is a bad system, you'll probably get confused between the formats, especially when in push/fold mode. I could go on in detail about this but I think you get the point; pick 1 or 2 formats and stick with them

I appreciate your opinion and agree with you to some extent. To be clear, I know I make my money in 9 player SNG's...its what I'm good at. However, I really want to give this MTT thing a shot. To fund my MTT experiment, I continue to play 9 man SNG's
 
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Ok, a few thoughts hit me here.

The problem with these methods is that you will become a jack of all trades, master of none. There are big differences between a 9, 18/27/45/90 and the 180, they're completely different games! It all goes on the payout structure; in STT there's a lot of value in being tight and basically "folding" ones way into the money, but in the 180 this is not true, one must take a lot of risks shoving over limpers because it is all about cEV for the most part, which encourages very aggressive play.

Basically, the 9 is the nits game, 180 is the maniacs game, and the others are in between(yes I'm exaggerating)


I really think this is a bad system, you'll probably get confused between the formats, especially when in push/fold mode. I could go on in detail about this but I think you get the point; pick 1 or 2 formats and stick with them

There is really no difference if the structures are the same, meaning if the levels are the same length and the starting chip stacks are the same. If you are interested in "folding your way into the money" instead of winning the tournament, then I suppose you would play differently, but ultimately in any of these tournaments (9,18,27,45,90,180,2000) you will find yourself in various stages based on your chip stack in relation to the blinds and antes. For example, you may have gotten lucky and be sitting on a huge stack of 100+ BB, or you may be shortstacked 10-20BB. Most of the time you'll be somewhere in the middle and there is correct strategy at each of these stack sizes. Please ignore how long the tournament takes. It is simply irrelavent. Your goal should be to look for spots to accumulate chips so you can stay ahead of the chip avg. You should ultimately want to win the tournament because all the money is literally in the top five spots in any tourney with more than 45 entries, anything less than that, then all the money is basically in first place.
 
medeiros13

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Update: I just finished 3rd in a 27 man. I was a very close 2nd to the chip leader when I reraised his raise with a AQ off. He shoved with what I assumed was either a low PP or A rag suited. He turned A5 off and spiked a 5 :( The tournament was over a few hands later as the villan dominated the short stack. As Miguel said above, I was playing to win and my read was right....just didn't work out for me.

To revisit something that was posted by pat3392. I don't think its a bad thing to try to become a jack of all trades poker player. I think we all morph our poker game based on our experiences. I started out tight as heck when I started poker and even though I think of myself as tight...I'm actually a lot looser than I'd like to admit these days....and I'm a much better player because of it. I've learned how to look for squeezes, opportunities to steal blinds, and am much better at laying down big hands. My philosophy of being well rounds has resulted in me being competent in stud and razz...and that shows up when I play in HORSE tournaments.

One thing that Miguel just stated (and I maybe taking this out of context) that I disagree with a little bit is taking time out of the equation and its irrelevant. I think it is relevant because we all want to build our BR's and taking a lot of time to bubble or whatever isn't a good use of our playing. Having said that, I'm multi tabling SNG's while doing this experiment anyway but I wanted to throw that out there.
 
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The time issue was in response to some posters comments about approaching the tournament differently based on the number of players, not the risk\reward of the time investement.

BTW there is an inverse relationship between the time investment and the payout meaning the greater time invested (risk) the greater the payout (reward).

I usually balance that by entering a 90 sng, a 180 sng, and then the 2.20 6 max 3k guarantee (large field) and the 2.20 4k guarantee (large field) all at the same time. Though the risk that you won't hit in a huge field is far greater, if you do manage a top 3 finish it's the equivalent of hitting 100 9 handed sngs or 50 18 man, or 30 27 man, or 20 45 man etc etc etc. Do you follow? The increase to your bankroll on such a small money investment is huge, but obv you will win much less often.
 
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pat3392

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I appreciate your opinion and agree with you to some extent. To be clear, I know I make my money in 9 player SNG's...its what I'm good at. However, I really want to give this MTT thing a shot. To fund my MTT experiment, I continue to play 9 man SNG's

Well there's more to poker than just profit so if you play more that one format and you enjoy it, go ahead! I'd be a hypocrite to tell you to do otherwise.

Aware of it or not, when you sit down at a game you have some sort of plan i.e I'm going to be super aggressive/ shove a lot etc. When you play a STT/MTT you gotta remind yourself of the few subtle differences so that you don't get confused. It may not be necessary, but it's probably a good habit to get into.

There is really no difference if the structures are the same, meaning if the levels are the same length and the starting chip stacks are the same. If you are interested in "folding your way into the money" instead of winning the tournament, then I suppose you would play differently, but ultimately in any of these tournaments (9,18,27,45,90,180,2000) you will find yourself in various stages based on your chip stack in relation to the blinds and antes. For example, you may have gotten lucky and be sitting on a huge stack of 100+ BB, or you may be shortstacked 10-20BB. Most of the time you'll be somewhere in the middle and there is correct strategy at each of these stack sizes. Please ignore how long the tournament takes. It is simply irrelavent. Your goal should be to look for spots to accumulate chips so you can stay ahead of the chip avg. You should ultimately want to win the tournament because all the money is literally in the top five spots in any tourney with more than 45 entries, anything less than that, then all the money is basically in first place.

I'm really not up for going into great length explaining this..... 2 concepts, ICM and payout structure. Just to get you thinking: have you ever played the bubble of a double or nothing? Why does one have to adapt there ranges to it? Now relate that to the beginning of a STT/MTT where one pays the top 10% and the other top 33%

To revisit something that was posted by pat3392. I don't think its a bad thing to try to become a jack of all trades poker player. I think we all morph our poker game based on our experiences. I started out tight as heck when I started poker and even though I think of myself as tight...I'm actually a lot looser than I'd like to admit these days....and I'm a much better player because of it. I've learned how to look for squeezes, opportunities to steal blinds, and am much better at laying down big hands. My philosophy of being well rounds has resulted in me being competent in stud and razz...and that shows up when I play in HORSE tournaments.

I can relate to that; my game has improved a lot when I've started playing deep stacked cash games, different variations gets one thinking of different aspects of the game.
 
medeiros13

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Update: just won a 27 man sng in a heck of a battle. (almost 2 hrs!) so now its on to the 45 man!
 
palmerd2

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please continue to post your progress. I have had a lot of trouble with flip-flopping between MTT formats and getting confused on how to play. I think you will have fun with the 45 man playing size.
 
medeiros13

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So far two shots at the 45 man. The first was not so successful, while the second resulted in a final table. Unfortunately, I was card dead and ultimately shoved with a mediocre 9 10 off on the button and lost to AQ.

I'm finding a trend in these larger tournaments. It seems like the blinds really start to jump up big on you after the first hour and it becomes a battle of blind stealing and trying to win some all in coin flips. I've yet to be the dominant stack (or at least sustain it) so maybe I'll feel differently if I'm the CL for most of a tournament. This type of thing is sort of what I expected so I need to get better at recognizing what stage I should be more aggressive at. I'm hoping that it will become second nature as I play more like it is with 9 man SNG's. Updates will come as I have things to add and/or a victory in a 45 man.
 
joe steady

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Keep in mind that some people play super aggressive early in an attempt to build a chipstack quickly. I've noticed that a lot of times they don't adjust to shoving ranges when blinds go up, so they're still playing hyper and calling down with top pair on a coordinated flop or whatever. Take notes - it helps a lot. Also, win coin flips - that helps a lot, too:)
 
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medeiros13

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I'm getting very frustrated at the 45 man level. I've made 3 final tables...bubbled three times. The blind levels seem to be too crazy at the end...even the big stacks hurt when they start to bet. Its starting to feel like its more luck than skill when you get to the final table. If that's the norm for final tables for MTT's, then I better find a gameplan to make the money because all I see is shoving and hoping...and right now others are making their hands at my expense.
 
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I'm getting very frustrated at the 45 man level. I've made 3 final tables...bubbled three times. The blind levels seem to be too crazy at the end...even the big stacks hurt when they start to bet. Its starting to feel like its more luck than skill when you get to the final table. If that's the norm for final tables for MTT's, then I better find a gameplan to make the money because all I see is shoving and hoping...and right now others are making their hands at my expense.

You've discovered the main difference. It sounds that you are playing a standard tight aggressive game which doesn't work at these.

The shoving is entirely different between a STT and a MTT. I can't stress that enough. The 45 aren't even a proper MTT either, the 180s are even more insane, due to 10% being payed and that they don't go particularly longer than the 45.

Please take no offense to this, but I'd imagine that you're one of the nits that I abuse the hell out of in these games. In many spots you've got to push ATC; this is assuming you're playing the turbo variant though.

To be profitable in these games you really need to rework your whole push/fold game. I recommend either talking to Poker Orifice about this(he plays the 45 SnG) buy a series called "Jonathan Little's Secrets," goes in good detail about how to play these games, I think it's fantastic, or spend at least 5 hours going over basically every hand in the late game via SnG Wiz. You've got to change the payout structure for SnG Wiz. Make sure it's not set up for the STT. Remember, every thing you have previously learnt with SnG Wiz goes out of the window; none of it applies and if you use it, you are pushing way to tight/blinding out, which is the worst mistake one can make in these games. If none of this sounds good I could send you a HH of me playing one of these but I still have a ton to learn playing these games; I sometimes suspect I'm pushing too loose but then I tighten up and all hell breaks loose. I could sweat a game and tell you when I'd push and why, allowing you to gain some insight of loose pushing spots but let's you decide if they're +EV or not
 
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