Crazy final table strategy

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colepure

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I've been playing a lot of micro stakes 45man SNG's at PS, and thanks to the guys here, I'm doing very well at the moment and my game has improved greatly :). Anyways, I was just in a FT (5 players left) and this guy started doing something really strange:

(Just FYI, the other 4 players at the table were extremely short stacked and got taken out in a few mins, so I didn't get to see this guy play enough hands to get some info about his play style). He went all-in EVERY hand for about 20 hands in a row. This is not an exaggeration.

He was average stack when he started doing this. Everybody was too afraid to call him, and he subsequently stole every blind until he was the highest stack at the table, then he sat-out until the final 2.

Is this a 'standard' strategy? Was this guy just crazy? Do you think he had some epic read on all the players and figured this would work out? This is really bothering me, because personally I think it is an idiotic strategy, yet he managed to profit so greatly from it.

Also, I ended up going heads up with him and won, but still confused lol.

tl;dr Guy goes all-in every single hand at FT and builds a monster stack.
 
Johniblayze

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It is an awesome strategy. Sitting out afterwards is idiotic. If your at a tight table try it out sometime. I would be playin those 45 mans with you if i could play on stars. Your lucky u can.
 
Matt Vaughan

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It is an awesome strategy. Sitting out afterwards is idiotic. If your at a tight table try it out sometime. I would be playin those 45 mans with you if i could play on stars. Your lucky u can.

No. This is not an awesome strategy... It's one thing to have a read... It's another to shove EVERY hand preflop 20 times in a row (if this is truly not an exaggeration). That's 4 times around the table. The reason this strategy sucks: If anyone picks up pocket aces, are they folding? No. How about pocket kings? Probably not. Queens? Maaaaybe. What about AK? AQ? odds are people will feel comfortable calling premium. If you shove over and over, odds are you will get called. He got lucky that no one ran into monsters.
 
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AllInDom

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I see these players, usually they get taken out. Sometimes they are called, by someone who thinks he's bluffing. He may win a few rounds but eventually he is out.
 
seanDCFC

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It's a great strategy if people are dumb enough to not call him lighter than they would usually call all-ins. If he can get away with this 20 times in a row then he will have picked up a hell of a lot of blinds.

Overall it is a dumb strategy as anyone with any sence will widen there calling range vs this player and will probably be ahead.
 
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Big_Rudy

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What others have said. Sure if the rest of the table is letting you/him get away with it, shove 50 times in a row. Shove 100 times straight if you're never getting called. Don't count on it though. Unless the rest of the table is totally clueless they will start to widen their calling ranges pretty quickly. Just a fluke that either no one picked-up anything at all or else they were all so clueless they had no idea how to respond.
 
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Aldito

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Sounds like he might have had to go out somewhere and wanted to ladder up before he left.
 
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pokernutts

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This is a good strategy ONLY if you are short stacked and everyone else on the bored LIMPS to you...

AND If you know these players are tight and normally raise with good hands. THEN...

You can asume they have marginal hands and will almost always fold.

BUT If you do it many times in a row be prepared to be called down with marginal hands because they will put you on a much looser range and figure they can win..which they would be right to do so.

Also if you do this its best to position yourself against the ones with the biggest stacks. They will be more afraid to go all in because they are in the lead.
 
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Demonomania

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The guy kind of sounds like a moron. He sat out until the final two? Seriously, are we trying to take down the SNG with a dominating chip lead, or are we waiting to build levels and actually compete for 1st?

The idea of even labeling "20 shoves in a row" as a strategy is ridiculous in itself.
 
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only_bridge

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Usually better than limp-calling everything.
(limp-calling everything can be a very effective strategy when opponent bluffs all-in with crap, and check-calls with premium)
 
duggs

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actual stack sizes would be helpful, but given ICM id be shipping a massive range every hand if it were on the bubble and i had 20bb and everyone else had >5. you only have to get two through for every call to be breaking even, plus you always have equity when called. I mean table would have to be pretty bad to not adjust but again without stack sizes its hard to say.
 
duggs

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also after 10 hands if noone adjusted their calling range i guess id keep shipping, you can abuse the shit out of ICM when chip leader.
 
duggs

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No. This is not an awesome strategy... It's one thing to have a read... It's another to shove EVERY hand preflop 20 times in a row (if this is truly not an exaggeration). That's 4 times around the table. The reason this strategy sucks: If anyone picks up pocket aces, are they folding? No. How about pocket kings? Probably not. Queens? Maaaaybe. What about AK? AQ? Odds are people will feel comfortable calling premium. If you shove over and over, odds are you will get called. He got lucky that no one ran into monsters.

tight calling ranges that you gave makes this profitable, given that he has the chip lead ans everyone else is short stacked, you only need to get through either 2/3 or 3/4 for every call you get to make this profitable, getting looked up by AA doesnt change a profitable shove. Eventually doubling a shorty up is fine because on averaged you have a net increase in chips. Also doubling one shorty up makes him tighten up with two shorties still left
 
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colepure

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Sounds like he might have had to go out somewhere and wanted to ladder up before he left.

This is what I concluded, however since he was already ITM, and he had an average stack, wouldn't he have been better off to just sit-out? That way its quite possible he could have taken 4th place or maybe even 3rd, but instead he risked everything.

I'm glad to hear that most of you agree that it is a bit idiotic. At the time, I thought he had just lost his mind and decided to wait for him to run out of steam, but that didn't happen until he had built a very scary stack.
 
duggs

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This is what I concluded, however since he was already ITM, and he had an average stack, wouldn't he have been better off to just sit-out? That way its quite possible he could have taken 4th place or maybe even 3rd, but instead he risked everything.

I'm glad to hear that most of you agree that it is a bit idiotic. At the time, I thought he had just lost his mind and decided to wait for him to run out of steam, but that didn't happen until he had built a very scary stack.

he essentially outplayed you guys then
 
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WiZZiM

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Try it a little OP, you might be suprised what you can get away with in the micros, and how those blinds and antes can add to your stack without going to showdown that often.

Obv don't just shove 20 hands then sitout, but essentially, it's pretty much optimal late game strategy to be shoving wide, especially if you think the players are scared to call.

Oh, and if you see people do this, punish them by calling wide, really wide. Theres nothing really to risk when you get 4 handed in a 45 man, your going for first, happy with second and everything else usually sucks.
 
Matt Vaughan

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tight calling ranges that you gave makes this profitable, given that he has the chip lead ans everyone else is short stacked, you only need to get through either 2/3 or 3/4 for every call you get to make this profitable, getting looked up by AA doesnt change a profitable shove. Eventually doubling a shorty up is fine because on averaged you have a net increase in chips. Also doubling one shorty up makes him tighten up with two shorties still left

I see your point, and I should have mentioned what others have said about widening calling ranges, but I was saying it more for the sake of argument. The guy is obviously shoving ATC, so if he gets looked up at all he's often screwed. Stack sizes not given obviously, but I think that even with a pretty hefty advantage I'd be wary of doing this 20 times in a row.

But if they're all folding every time anyway... :dontknow:
 
duggs

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running over final tables is super +EV,
what wizzim said
 
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armyguy318

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HAHA, Ive seen this done and it can go both ways really. Some people just rather throw the chips out there and let luck do the work. Which is exactly what this donk was doing.
 
Matt Vaughan

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running over final tables is super +EV,
what wizzim said

Yes but if it's a bigger MTT, odds are you have no reads on much of anyone going into the final table, so unless I have that big stack, I'm skeptical of coming out completely firing. Maybe I'll try it on my next FT though and see how different stack sizes let me accomplish this (or not).
 
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WiZZiM

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Players in the micros get scared at final tables they are thinking about the money, so punish them.

With experience you will know which opponants to push hard at, and which to leave alone a little more.

Scourrge, bigger MTT's lend themselves to having far bigger stacks compared to the blinds. Stack sizes can vary from FT to FT, in the 45's they are much more even.

Talking about OP's specific situation in the 45 mans, you will encounter a lot of short stacked play, lots of shoving etc etc. If you arn't shoving as well, your stack will soon be nothing and you will force yourself into a "flipping" situation... Why not put someone else in that situation if you can?

Oh, and if your worried about getting called.. guess what? you still win usually around 20-50% of the time when called anyways not matter what your hand is. And it's hilarious when someone snaps you off with AK and your 73offsuit wins, it's what makes poker worth playing :D.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Players in the micros get scared at final tables they are thinking about the money, so punish them.

With experience you will know which opponants to push hard at, and which to leave alone a little more.

Scourrge, bigger MTT's lend themselves to having far bigger stacks compared to the blinds. Stack sizes can vary from FT to FT, in the 45's they are much more even.

Talking about OP's specific situation in the 45 mans, you will encounter a lot of short stacked play, lots of shoving etc etc. If you arn't shoving as well, your stack will soon be nothing and you will force yourself into a "flipping" situation... Why not put someone else in that situation if you can?

Oh, and if your worried about getting called.. guess what? you still win usually around 20-50% of the time when called anyways not matter what your hand is. And it's hilarious when someone snaps you off with AK and your 73offsuit wins, it's what makes poker worth playing :D.

I wasn't saying big MTT's = small stacks. I was saying that when you enter a FT, there's no guarantee you'll have have stats/reads on more than a few people. My second statement was an addition to that - just saying that having a larger stack helps because you can push people around without having a specific read.

But I stand by what I've said - yes it's better to be aggressive than passive, it'll pay you off better in general, but EVERY hand?? It will work sometimes, no doubt, but the rest of the time I don't think you're coming out on top.

So I guess the real question is: Is this "strategy" +EV? I don't think it's going to pay you off enough the times that it works. JMHO.
 
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I've seen it and called with my pocket aces and been sent to the rail by an off suit deuce tre before.
I do mind the morons doing it, but I mind it even more when they get unfairly rewarded for it.

Off course after the first 4 or 5 times everyone is fully aware of what is happening and has them tagged as a moron.

The interesting twist is then to sit out to the headsup.
Clearly realising there isnt any respect left and avoiding any damaging conflicts after amassing a sizeable advantage.

Although it might just have been someone who had to go out to the shops or something so decided to try and double up or go out before leaving.

These types of play are always annoying and so frustrating when they get lucky but its all part of the modern day bingo.
Perhaps its time to take another look at Pot Limit games.
 
duggs

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read above regarding exploiting others tendencies, if your calling range is AA i really wouldnt care if you tag me as moron
 
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Aldito

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I've seen it and called with my pocket aces and been sent to the rail by an off suit deuce tre before.
I do mind the morons doing it, but I mind it even more when they get unfairly rewarded for it.

Off course after the first 4 or 5 times everyone is fully aware of what is happening and has them tagged as a moron.

The interesting twist is then to sit out to the headsup.
Clearly realising there isnt any respect left and avoiding any damaging conflicts after amassing a sizeable advantage.

Although it might just have been someone who had to go out to the shops or something so decided to try and double up or go out before leaving.

These types of play are always annoying and so frustrating when they get lucky but its all part of the modern day bingo.
Perhaps its time to take another look at Pot Limit games.

lol, you mad nit?
 
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